How did the best head coaches do in the first 6 years?

WhosYourDawggy said:
This is, or course, directed at @Illustrious Potentate, who has advocated for the firing of Kirby Smart. I am going to be gracious and allow him to change this narrative to "I was just a dumbass troll" now that we won the natty and rule the world.

Click to expand...


Nick Saban was at Mich St they weren't even relevant .
 
WhosYourDawggy said:
I have forgotten more about recruiting that you have ever known.
you are more of an idiot than I thought.
Move along, let the adults talk football.
Click to expand...
Uh oh, better watch out, fellas.... Brainiac is about to put more users on ignore.. Told y'all we needed to subscribe to Rivals so we can be half as smart as this Brainiac
 
WhosYourDawggy said:
I have forgotten more about recruiting that you have ever known.

Are you really inferring that Smart is not a good recruiter? Because if you think that then you are more of an idiot than I thought.

If all you have to do is have blue chips in your state, explain Texas the past 15 years. Explain the Cali schools. Hell, explain how terrible the 3 Florida schools are if all it takes is having blue chip recruits in your state. It takes more than just having blue chip players in your state.

"2021 -- Smart signed 8 top 100 recruits. All 8 are from.............Georgia. All he is doing is keeping in state recruits, in state."

Where to even start. First, your numbers are wrong. 7 of the 8 were from Georgia. Sorey is from Florida.

Then why did you pick 2021? Why not all the other years? You wrongly stated that 8 of the top 8 were GA. Why stop there? Here is the entire list from best to worst by state for 2021:

GA, GA, FL, GA, GA, GA, GA, GA, Cali, FL, GA, SC, MD, AL, GA, TN , NC, FL, GA, AL - now we see why you stopped there ... half the class from GA, the other half from out of state. But, All he is doing is keeping in state recruits, in state.

Smart has said on many occasions he will recruit the best players wherever they are. I believe it was 2019 and 2020 when talent in Georgia was down and he went elsewhere more. 2023 is a loaded year for Georgia and I expect to see him recruit more in-state.

As to "all he is doing is keeping in state recruits" is ignorance at it's best. I'll just take the most recent class, but you can go back and look and see Smart does this a lot. From best to worst of our 28 players:

GA, GA, FL, FL, FL, CA, NC, FL, MS, TX, GA, GA, GA, GA, GA, TX, FL, GA, FL, TN, AL, GA, GA, TX, GA, LA, GA, GA, Australia - less than half the class from Georgia. But, All he is doing is keeping in state recruits, in state.

Read that, and then realize how stupid it was that you actually typed: "all he is doing is keeping in state recruits"

Move along, let the adults talk football.
Click to expand...
Texas has UT, Texas A&M, Baylor, hell even Houston has pulled 5 star recruits from Texas (Ed Oliver).

California has USC, UCLA, Cal, Stanford, etc.

Florida has Florida, Florida State, Miami, etc.

Georgia has Georgia. Georgia Tech has a program, but they aren't taking any recruits from Georgia.

Are you catching on? Those states have multiple D1 schools in state fighting over the in state recruits. Georgia, like LSU, like Ohio State, have the pick of the litter in state.

Will there be years -- the in state talent doesn't have a ton of in state guys? Sure. But not having a ton of blue chip recruits to Georgia is only having 20 blue chip recruits in a year.

When you have an in state school who dominates recruiting in a talent rich state -- it makes recruiting elsewhere MUCH easier, because those in state Georgia commits will be at the national camps with the other elite recruits talking to them and convincing them to join up with them.

And nowhere did I say is all Kirby Smart is only keeping in state recruits to Georgia -- I said you can put a traffic cone at HC of Georgia and still bring in a top 20 class with the amount of in state talent they have on a yearly basis.

Lastly -- I used 2021, because it is the last complete recruiting class we have. And I used the top 100, because the top 100 is the elite of the elite on a year to year basis. It is usually recruits who have graded out 95 or higher.


To put it in perspective the advantage that Georgia has -- if you swapped Kirby Smart -- the amazing recruiter, as you say and put him at, Nebraska. He'd do the exact same as Scott Frost has done there recruiting. And if you put Scott Frost at Georgia -- he'd turn into 'an amazing recruiter', because a traffic cone could be the head coach and they'd still sign an elite recruiting class.

Let me ask you this -- Do you think it is a coincidence that the schools winning all the time are the schools located in talent rich conference footprints or talent rich states? I'd think it would be common sense by now to anyone who watches football. It is why Riley left OU to go to USC. It is why Kelly left ND to go to LSU. They are essentially guaranteed a half dozen or more top 100 recruits a year without having to leave their back yard.
 
huskers1217 said:
Nick Saban was at Mich St they weren't even relevant .
Click to expand...
Saban pulled a bigger dick move to his MSU team than he did with Miami Dolphins. He had a team meeting with MSU during bowl practice saying he wasn't leaving, then left in the middle of the night to take the LSU job without talking to the team.

Plaxico Burress was on that team and he has held a grudge against Saban ever since.
 
NewPhoneWhoDis said:
Saban pulled a bigger dick move to his MSU team than he did with Miami Dolphins. He had a team meeting with MSU during bowl practice saying he wasn't leaving, then left in the middle of the night to take the LSU job without talking to the team.

Plaxico Burress was on that team and he has held a grudge against Saban ever since.
Click to expand...

Heard he tried to shoot Saban in the leg
 
NewPhoneWhoDis said:
Texas has UT, Texas A&M, Baylor, hell even Houston has pulled 5 star recruits from Texas (Ed Oliver).

California has USC, UCLA, Cal, Stanford, etc.

Florida has Florida, Florida State, Miami, etc.

Georgia has Georgia. Georgia Tech has a program, but they aren't taking any recruits from Georgia.

Are you catching on? Those states have multiple D1 schools in state fighting over the in state recruits. Georgia, like LSU, like Ohio State, have the pick of the litter in state.

Will there be years -- the in state talent doesn't have a ton of in state guys? Sure. But not having a ton of blue chip recruits to Georgia is only having 20 blue chip recruits in a year.

When you have an in state school who dominates recruiting in a talent rich state -- it makes recruiting elsewhere MUCH easier, because those in state Georgia commits will be at the national camps with the other elite recruits talking to them and convincing them to join up with them.

And nowhere did I say is all Kirby Smart is only keeping in state recruits to Georgia -- I said you can put a traffic cone at HC of Georgia and still bring in a top 20 class with the amount of in state talent they have on a yearly basis.

Lastly -- I used 2021, because it is the last complete recruiting class we have. And I used the top 100, because the top 100 is the elite of the elite on a year to year basis. It is usually recruits who have graded out 95 or higher.

To put it in perspective the advantage that Georgia has -- if you swapped Kirby Smart -- the amazing recruiter, as you say and put him at, Nebraska. He'd do the exact same as Scott Frost has done there recruiting. And if you put Scott Frost at Georgia -- he'd turn into 'an amazing recruiter', because a traffic cone could be the head coach and they'd still sign an elite recruiting class.

Let me ask you this -- Do you think it is a coincidence that the schools winning all the time are the schools located in talent rich conference footprints or talent rich states? I'd think it would be common sense by now to anyone who watches football. It is why Riley left OU to go to USC. It is why Kelly left ND to go to LSU. They are essentially guaranteed a half dozen or more top 100 recruits a year without having to leave their back yard.
Click to expand...
You point out that there are multiple teams in the state I pointed out. But you make the wrong conclusion as to why none of them have recruited well. It's not that they have spread the talent around. It's that teams like tOSU, Clemson, Bama, UGA and even OU have raided their states. Why? Because they have coaches that know how to recruit and build programs that kids want to play for. It ain't an accident, or just good fortune. Hell, Smart landed more of the top players from Florida than all the in-state schools combined. Not sure why you want to die on the hill that Smart isn't a top 2 recruiter ... it's widely acknowledged by anyone in CFB that he is.

You inferred that Smart was a good recruiter solely due to the in-state talent. That is your argument for why you won't acknowledge he is a great recruiter. Again, I pointed out in just two classes that half or more of the recruiting he does is out of state. If he is only good because of the Georgia talent, how in the world does he land all the top out of state talent that he gets?

LOL at "you can put a traffic cone at HC of Georgia and still bring in a top 20 class with the amount of in state talent they have on a yearly basis." If that is what a traffic cone can do, that sucks. Do you really think a top 20 class is good? That sucks. You either have top 3 talent year in and year out, or a generational QB (thinking Clemson here). You might make a natty run with top 5 talent, but it isn't likely.

I guarantee you that Smart would do way better than Frost has done if he was at Nebraska. That said, he still wouldn't pull in top 3 classes, IMO. I've argued with Nebraska fans many times here that the one point your are correct on ... your last paragraph ... is why it's not very likely they will get back to their glory days any time soon. Being in the south is why the southern teams are better and will continue to be better. Southern kids aren't going to head to the northern/midwestern teams at a high enough volume to make a difference. But, Smart would have brought Saban's system with him to Nebraska, and as good a recruiter as he is he would have done better than any of their coaches have done for years. Just not good enough to make a natty run.

Being in the south is a huge advantage, but just being in the south isn't good enough. That point should be obvious by once again looking at all the coaches who have failed in the south because they sucked at recruiting. How come coach after coach has failed at UF, FSU, Miami, UGA, Auburn, UTjr., etc. Because contrary to your assertion, just being in the south, while an obvious advantage, is good enough. You also have to know how to recruit. Saban, Smart, Dumbo know how to do that. We'll see about all the new coaches. We will see if Dabo adjusts to the new way things are being done.
 
NewPhoneWhoDis said:
Saban pulled a bigger dick move to his MSU team than he did with Miami Dolphins. He had a team meeting with MSU during bowl practice saying he wasn't leaving, then left in the middle of the night to take the LSU job without talking to the team.

Plaxico Burress was on that team and he has held a grudge against Saban ever since.
Click to expand...
How will Saban ever get over it ... Paxico Burress doesn't like him. SMH.
 
Thiefery said:
Uh oh, better watch out, fellas.... Brainiac is about to put more users on ignore.. Told y'all we needed to subscribe to Rivals so we can be half as smart as this Brainiac
Click to expand...
I put trolls on Ignore. You are a troll.

I've been open where I get my intel - I am on 3 pay sites (including Rivals), I am on here, a Patreon site, I listen to a ton of CFB podcasts, I read a ton, I've been following college football for 50+ years, and I have some low level contacts in the UGA program. I am clearly not an "Insider" and have never claimed that I am.

My time is also very valuable, CFB is my hobby. So, I Ignore trolls on all the sites because I am more interested in serious discussions, even with people that I disagree with. I don't have time for trolls like you who provide no substantive information to the other posters here.

It will take a lot more than you joining Rivals to be half as smart as I am.
 
You think anyone reads this?

Futurama GIF by HULU
 
WhosYourDawggy said:
You point out that there are multiple teams in the state I pointed out. But you make the wrong conclusion as to why none of them have recruited well. It's not that they have spread the talent around. It's that teams like tOSU, Clemson, Bama, UGA and even OU have raided their states. Why? Because they have coaches that know how to recruit and build programs that kids want to play for. It ain't an accident, or just good fortune. Hell, Smart landed more of the top players from Florida than all the in-state schools combined. Not sure why you want to die on the hill that Smart isn't a top 2 recruiter ... it's widely acknowledged by anyone in CFB that he is.

You inferred that Smart was a good recruiter solely due to the in-state talent. That is your argument for why you won't acknowledge he is a great recruiter. Again, I pointed out in just two classes that half or more of the recruiting he does is out of state. If he is only good because of the Georgia talent, how in the world does he land all the top out of state talent that he gets?

LOL at "you can put a traffic cone at HC of Georgia and still bring in a top 20 class with the amount of in state talent they have on a yearly basis." If that is what a traffic cone can do, that sucks. Do you really think a top 20 class is good? That sucks. You either have top 3 talent year in and year out, or a generational QB (thinking Clemson here). You might make a natty run with top 5 talent, but it isn't likely.

I guarantee you that Smart would do way better than Frost has done if he was at Nebraska. That said, he still wouldn't pull in top 3 classes, IMO. I've argued with Nebraska fans many times here that the one point your are correct on ... your last paragraph ... is why it's not very likely they will get back to their glory days any time soon. Being in the south is why the southern teams are better and will continue to be better. Southern kids aren't going to head to the northern/midwestern teams at a high enough volume to make a difference. But, Smart would have brought Saban's system with him to Nebraska, and as good a recruiter as he is he would have done better than any of their coaches have done for years. Just not good enough to make a natty run.

Being in the south is a huge advantage, but just being in the south isn't good enough. That point should be obvious by once again looking at all the coaches who have failed in the south because they sucked at recruiting. How come coach after coach has failed at UF, FSU, Miami, UGA, Auburn, UTjr., etc. Because contrary to your assertion, just being in the south, while an obvious advantage, is good enough. You also have to know how to recruit. Saban, Smart, Dumbo know how to do that. We'll see about all the new coaches. We will see if Dabo adjusts to the new way things are being done.
Click to expand...
He is a great recruiter because it is easy to sell a program when you already have the built in advantage of having a half dozen top 100 recruits committed from your backyard. It is easy to talk kids into joining recruiting classes when they are teaming up with elite recruits they have attended all the national camps with. You talked about 2022 being diversified, but the top 2 recruits are 5 star guys from Georgia ranked in the top 20 in the nation.

This is why coaches leap frog jobs. It isn't that they absolutely love to live in Athens, or Tuscaloosa, or Columbus or LA, or Austin, etc. They love the in state talent those schools bring in. They love the blank checks those schools give out to chase recruits to team up with that in state talent.

And you can say it til you are blue in the face that Smart would do this or do that at a school with zero in state talent, but the fact is -- it wouldn't happen. They'd still be getting the same type of classes they get now at Nebraska. Saban wasn't bringing in elite classes at MSU, even when the state of Michigan had one of their best years of all time for recruits in Michigan (especially in areas that are pro-MSU) where Charles Rogers committed to MSU. He was able to bring in a top 10 class, but nowhere near what elite schools are recruiting.

You HAVE to be at one of a select few schools unless you buy a class like A&M did this year to be elite recruiting. Michigan is a huge brand nationally and we can't even come close to those schools at the top. Why? We have to rely on 90+% of our blue chip recruits from out of state. If you swapped locations for Georgia and Michigan -- Michigan would now be this recruiting juggernaut. Not because they are now elite at recruiting, but because they have the richest in state footprint of any program who doesn't have to fight another in state school.

I laugh when a southern school talks about how good they are at recruiting. It'd be like the NFL giving the super bowl champs 6 or 7 1st round picks the next year, then saying how good the coach is.

Reality is -- The schools in the south have an ENORMOUS advantage. Not only in the sheer number of elite recruits, but the fact the kids are playing elite programs filled with D-1 recruits in high school. Hell -- I'm the first one to say -- I'm extremely jealous of programs like Georgia, like Alabama, like LSU, like OSU, etc. because I'd do anything to have the footprint they have in my backyard. UM has the same issue ND has at times, Nebraska will always have, where they only have a handful of blue chip recruits a year, then they have to battle MSU for those kids. The rest we have to sign from out of state and if you want to pull kids from talent rich states, they have to move 1200-2000+ miles from home - they have to go from a warm weather state to a cold weather state, they have to go from shorts and a tshirt to below zero temps in the winter and snow.

It is why CFB isn't going to change any time soon. The top teams will continue to be the teams with elite recruits in their backyard. Michigan's only chance is if one of the many billionaires they have as alumni decide to buy a couple recruiting classes. Maybe Larry Page (one of the founders of google) will donate a few billion dollars to buy some classes - he is worth like 150 billion, so he wouldn't miss it. That's about our only chance to recruit like the top programs now.
 
NewPhoneWhoDis said:
He is a great recruiter because it is easy to sell a program when you already have the built in advantage of having a half dozen top 100 recruits committed from your backyard. It is easy to talk kids into joining recruiting classes when they are teaming up with elite recruits they have attended all the national camps with. You talked about 2022 being diversified, but the top 2 recruits are 5 star guys from Georgia ranked in the top 20 in the nation.

This is why coaches leap frog jobs. It isn't that they absolutely love to live in Athens, or Tuscaloosa, or Columbus or LA, or Austin, etc. They love the in state talent those schools bring in. They love the blank checks those schools give out to chase recruits to team up with that in state talent.

And you can say it til you are blue in the face that Smart would do this or do that at a school with zero in state talent, but the fact is -- it wouldn't happen. They'd still be getting the same type of classes they get now at Nebraska. Saban wasn't bringing in elite classes at MSU, even when the state of Michigan had one of their best years of all time for recruits in Michigan (especially in areas that are pro-MSU) where Charles Rogers committed to MSU. He was able to bring in a top 10 class, but nowhere near what elite schools are recruiting.

You HAVE to be at one of a select few schools unless you buy a class like A&M did this year to be elite recruiting. Michigan is a huge brand nationally and we can't even come close to those schools at the top. Why? We have to rely on 90+% of our blue chip recruits from out of state. If you swapped locations for Georgia and Michigan -- Michigan would now be this recruiting juggernaut. Not because they are now elite at recruiting, but because they have the richest in state footprint of any program who doesn't have to fight another in state school.

I laugh when a southern school talks about how good they are at recruiting. It'd be like the NFL giving the super bowl champs 6 or 7 1st round picks the next year, then saying how good the coach is.

Reality is -- The schools in the south have an ENORMOUS advantage. Not only in the sheer number of elite recruits, but the fact the kids are playing elite programs filled with D-1 recruits in high school. Hell -- I'm the first one to say -- I'm extremely jealous of programs like Georgia, like Alabama, like LSU, like OSU, etc. because I'd do anything to have the footprint they have in my backyard. UM has the same issue ND has at times, Nebraska will always have, where they only have a handful of blue chip recruits a year, then they have to battle MSU for those kids. The rest we have to sign from out of state and if you want to pull kids from talent rich states, they have to move 1200-2000+ miles from home - they have to go from a warm weather state to a cold weather state, they have to go from shorts and a tshirt to below zero temps in the winter and snow.

It is why CFB isn't going to change any time soon. The top teams will continue to be the teams with elite recruits in their backyard. Michigan's only chance is if one of the many billionaires they have as alumni decide to buy a couple recruiting classes. Maybe Larry Page (one of the founders of google) will donate a few billion dollars to buy some classes - he is worth like 150 billion, so he wouldn't miss it. That's about our only chance to recruit like the top programs now.
Click to expand...
K
 
7samurai13 said:
Do you actually believe that Smart walked into a more difficult situation than Dabo did at Clemson, Brian Kelly did at Cincinnati, and Saban did at Michigan State? Smart had a significantly easier jump point between a much more established roster of higher end players and being in a talent rich state.
Click to expand...
I always wonder how things would have turned out if situations were reversed. While there are other examples similar to these. Let's use Smart and Rhule.

Would Rhule have been able to have the success at Georgia that Smart has achieved?

Would Smart have been able to pull Baylor out of the sewer like Rhule did?
 
Illustrious Potentate said:
But remember when Richt tried to recruit Cam Newton as a tight end?
Click to expand...
That happens a lot. The "biggies" in Texas were only willing to recruit RGIII as a DB. Houston (Briles) was the only one willing to recruit him as a QB. So he followed Briles to Baylor.
 
huskers1217 said:
Nick Saban was at Mich St they weren't even relevant .
Click to expand...
As Coach Corso would say, this is a "First Guess"...

It was a slower build, but he was in the process of building something special at Michigan State. Not Alabama special, but he could have won B1G titles and a National Championship at MSU.

They had ups and downs while they were building, but at the end of 1998 they went into @ Ohio State (won 28-24) and derailed that GREAT Buckeye team from a chance to win the first BCS Championship.

Then, I saw the 1999 team play and win @ Northwestern (34-0) in person. That team was very talented and built in the Saban mold. I walked out of Ryan Filed that day very, very impressed with Mr. Saban.

Even at LSU (which was down), he won the SEC Championship in 2 years (2001) and a BCS Championship in 4 years (2003) after a 13 year SEC drought (1988) and a 45 year National Championship drought (1958).

Yes, it is easier for Saban at Alabama than it was at Michigan State; however, he was starting to show his greatness with Sparty and kicked it up a notch at LSU - before he eventually landed at Alabama.

Just my onion.
 
Last edited:
78Cyclones said:
As Coach Corso would say, this is a "First Guess"...

It was a slower build, but he was in the process of building something special at Michigan State. Not Alabama special, but he could have won B1G titles and a National Championship at MSU.

They had ups and downs while they were building, but at the end of 1998 they went into @ Ohio State (won 28-24) and derailed that GREAT Buckeye team from a chance to win the first BCS Championship.

Then, I saw the 1999 team play and win @ Northwestern (34-0) in person. That team was very talented and built in the Saban mold. I walked out of Ryan Filed that day very, very impressed with Mr. Saban.

Even at LSU (which was down), he won the SEC Championship in 2 years (2001) and a BCS Championship in 4 years (2003) after a 13 year SEC drought (1988) and a 45 year National Championship drought (1958).

Yes, it is easier for Saban at Alabama than it was at Michigan State; however, he was starting to show his greatness with Sparty and kicked it up a notch at LSU - before he eventually landed at Alabama.

Just my onion.
Click to expand...
As someone who grew up in the state of Michigan -- I watched pretty much every game of Saban at MSU, with the exception of games they were playing at the same time as UM.

While he had MSU competitive again, the last thing he did was turn them into a power school or was on the verge of doing so. So he bounced to a program where he'd be able to get in better recruits and compete with the national powers. It is essentially the same thing Harbaugh tried to do this year, but the NFL didn't want him.

MSU was .500 for 4 years, then the stars aligned for a year, kind of like UM this past year, where the ball bounced their way, the tough games were all at home and he jumped ship, because he knew he wasn't winning a national title at MSU.

MSU is a great school, but you simply cannot miss on recruits at a school like MSU, as they have to fight UM for Michigan recruits, then have to fight UM, OSU and ND for any Midwest recruits. So they don't have blue chip recruits waiting in the wings.

It is why MSU paid Tucker an absurd amount of money, because they know he'd be gone to the first program to offer him a job in a rich recruiting state. So they paid him like a Saban or Swinney, even though he isn't one of them.
 
NewPhoneWhoDis said:
As someone who grew up in the state of Michigan -- I watched pretty much every game of Saban at MSU, with the exception of games they were playing at the same time as UM.

While he had MSU competitive again, the last thing he did was turn them into a power school or was on the verge of doing so. So he bounced to a program where he'd be able to get in better recruits and compete with the national powers. It is essentially the same thing Harbaugh tried to do this year, but the NFL didn't want him.

MSU was .500 for 4 years, then the stars aligned for a year, kind of like UM this past year, where the ball bounced their way, the tough games were all at home and he jumped ship, because he knew he wasn't winning a national title at MSU.

MSU is a great school, but you simply cannot miss on recruits at a school like MSU, as they have to fight UM for Michigan recruits, then have to fight UM, OSU and ND for any Midwest recruits. So they don't have blue chip recruits waiting in the wings.

It is why MSU paid Tucker an absurd amount of money, because they know he'd be gone to the first program to offer him a job in a rich recruiting state. So they paid him like a Saban or Swinney, even though he isn't one of them.
Click to expand...
It's definitely tougher at MSU than at LSU or Alabama. No doubt about it. The ugly was really ugly (Nebraska home and home for example). I am just saying that I could see the potential of Nick Saban at that time. Diamond in the rough. He was going to be a successful Head Coach in the long run one way or the other, and LSU made a great hire. I have no doubt that he could have done as well or better than Dantonio did if he would have hung around for the long haul. It just takes more patience to build that @ MSU than it did @ LSU or @ Alabama.
 
78Cyclones said:
It's definitely tougher at MSU than at LSU or Alabama. No doubt about it. The ugly was really ugly (Nebraska home and home for example). I am just saying that I could see the potential of Nick Saban at that time. Diamond in the rough. He was going to be a successful Head Coach in the long run one way or the other, and LSU made a great hire. I have no doubt that he could have done as well or better than Dantonio did if he would have hung around for the long haul. It just takes more patience to build that @ MSU than it did @ LSU or @ Alabama.
Click to expand...
Yeah -- i agree. You could tell he was going to solid. I don't think anyone could predict what he became. It is just tough to tell what you will get from a coach until they have those enormous advantages at a select few schools.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top