Religion vs The Church

Kburjr

Kburjr

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Religion, to me, is a branch of philosophy, usually based upon the teachings of a master/deity

A church is an organization that uses religion to indoctrinate and control the followers.


Discuss
 
religion is for the weak minded

jesse ventura got something right IMO
 
Kburjr said:
Religion, to me, is a branch of philosophy, usually based upon the teachings of a master/deity

A church is an organization that uses religion to indoctrinate and control the followers.


Discuss
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I prefer faith as to religion/church
 
church is an extension of religion. a place for it. church, temple, what have you.
 
Kburjr said:
Religion, to me, is a branch of philosophy, usually based upon the teachings of a master/deity

A church is an organization that uses religion to indoctrinate and control the followers.


Discuss
Click to expand...
The “Church” is defined very differently for many people. In my case “Church” refers to the Catholic faith not a building and his purpose is not to control but to support. I have free will to do as I will but the Church gives me guidance and an avenue for accountability and redemption. Note the accountability isn’t to the Church but to God.

The accountability is what so many struggle with and refuse to accept because it is an admittance to weakness and an encouragement to change. So many don’t want to be judged by any terms other than their own so in effect they seek control of something they have no hope to achieve. They also fear change so they resist it. The truth is none of us are perfect and change to the positive is always rewarding.

It’s interesting you used the word control and it is often a word to criticize religion but my faith isn’t about control it’s admitting there is none to take.
 
Wild Turkey said:
The “Church” is defined very differently for many people. In my case “Church” refers to the Catholic faith not a building and his purpose is not to control but to support. I have free will to do as I will but the Church gives me guidance and an avenue for accountability and redemption. Note the accountability isn’t to the Church but to God.

The accountability is what so many struggle with and refuse to accept because it is an admittance to weakness and an encouragement to change. So many don’t want to be judged by any terms other than their own so in effect they seek control of something they have no hope to achieve. They also fear change so they resist it. The truth is none of us are perfect and change to the positive is always rewarding.

It’s interesting you used the word control and it is often a word to criticize religion but my faith isn’t about control it’s admitting there is none to take.
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I have to ask. Does the church excommunicate you or does God? Isn't that a tool to control your behavior?
 
Kburjr said:
I have to ask. Does the church excommunicate you or does God? Isn't that a tool to control your behavior?
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See that is one of the most misunderstood elements within the Church. People assume that excommunication is a punishment and banishes you from heaven but that isn't what excommunication is at all.

Excommunication is the halt to the sacraments while the party takes their time to reconcile and heal themselves. They aren't banished from the Church and the things like the mass obligation is not removed they simply do not take communion or go to confession until they get back into a state of grace. It is deemed to be a rehabilitating process that is not meant to be cruel or punitive and you do not see announcements of it being issued unless it is a priest and that is so people will know they cannot perform the sacraments. In 99% of cases (including the priest), a person self excommunicates (meaning it is their choice to do so).

A historical example of this is how the Church is criticized because it did not excommunicate Hitler. Well there was no point in excommunicating Hitler because he chose self excommunication and cut himself off from the sacraments. Had he wanted to repent and come back to the Church he would have been allowed as long as the desire was sincere but that would have never happened.

Excommunication does not mean that you are going to hell because the Church does not make those judgments for it is God's alone to make. The Church does recognize Saints which is a declaration they are in Heaven, but you will not find where the Church has declared someone in hell.

In short, it is not something that is used for control or punishment, and to do so would be in error and wrong.
 
Wild Turkey said:
See that is one of the most misunderstood elements within the Church. People assume that excommunication is a punishment and banishes you from heaven but that isn't what excommunication is at all.

Excommunication is the halt to the sacraments while the party takes their time to reconcile and heal themselves. They aren't banished from the Church and the things like the mass obligation is not removed they simply do not take communion or go to confession until they get back into a state of grace. It is deemed to be a rehabilitating process that is not meant to be cruel or punitive and you do not see announcements of it being issued unless it is a priest and that is so people will know they cannot perform the sacraments. In 99% of cases (including the priest), a person self excommunicates (meaning it is their choice to do so).

A historical example of this is how the Church is criticized because it did not excommunicate Hitler. Well there was no point in excommunicating Hitler because he chose self excommunication and cut himself off from the sacraments. Had he wanted to repent and come back to the Church he would have been allowed as long as the desire was sincere but that would have never happened.

Excommunication does not mean that you are going to hell because the Church does not make those judgments for it is God's alone to make. The Church does recognize Saints which is a declaration they are in Heaven, but you will not find where the Church has declared someone in hell.

In short, it is not something that is used for control or punishment, and to do so would be in error and wrong.
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If you are willing, let's continue. I don't know the Catholic Church at all.

Question: Excommunication seems to be a church function. Correct? Or is it a question of faith?
 
Kburjr said:
Religion, to me, is a branch of philosophy, usually based upon the teachings of a master/deity

A church is an organization that uses religion to indoctrinate and control the followers.


Discuss
Click to expand...
There are many different types of churches and religious organizations. I can't speak for other religions or churches, but mine does not try to control people; it guides and encourages them. Indoctrinate, yes, if the intended definition of "indoctrinate" is "teach". ...Just as Christ did.

Christianity distilled is all about being a better person. The Bible is the "Handbook of Life" and the "Guidebook of Christianity". The Old Testament distilled is an account of God's rules for this world and a collection of history lessons that chronicle what happens to civilizations that follow or don't follow His rules. [Spoiler: things go really well when humans follow the rules and really poorly when they don't.] The New Testament distilled is an account of the ultimate individual role model for human behavior and a guidance for optimal discipleship of that ultimate role model.
 
RP-29 said:
There are many different types of churches and religious organizations. I can't speak for other religions or churches, but mine does not try to control people; it guides and encourages them. Indoctrinate, yes, if the intended definition of "indoctrinate" is "teach". ...Just as Christ did.

Christianity distilled is all about being a better person. The Bible is the "Handbook of Life" and the "Guidebook of Christianity". The Old Testament distilled is an account of God's rules for this world and a collection of history lessons that chronicle what happens to civilizations that follow or don't follow His rules. [Spoiler: things go really well when humans follow the rules and really poorly when they don't.] The New Testament distilled is an account of the ultimate individual role model for human behavior and a guidance for optimal discipleship of that ultimate role model.
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Does your religion or church demand that you believe that Jesus is the literal Son of God?
 
Religion is a delusion.

Church is a club for people who share the same delusion to go to every Sunday to compare clothing and be gigantic hypocrites.
 
Kburjr said:
Does your religion or church demand that you believe that Jesus is the literal Son of God?
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Church is a place people congregate to acquire instruction and peace and members of my church willingly acknowledge Jesus as the Son of God - including me. Membership is not required for attendance.
 
RP-29 said:
Church is a place people congregate to acquire instruction and peace and members of my church willingly acknowledge Jesus as the Son of God - including me. Membership is not required for attendance.
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I think I recall that you're Catholic.

What church in Oshkosh do you attend? Asking for a friend.
 
I think it is helpful for believers to see the Church from two perspectives.

The first is The Church(upper case) as ordained by God:
Matt 16:18-20 "And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it."
This is a spiritual Church. According to Jesus, it is His Church. It resides in the spirit of all believers. It is eternal according to Scripture. In this Church there are no denominations.

The second is churches(lower case). These are worldly institutions. There is no doubt that 'churches' created and maintained by man are often manipulative, greedy and corrupt. They do much good but they also do much evil. They often do what they must to survive in the politics of the day. They are imperfect and will someday cease to exist(like all things made by man).

Christians could say, "We are The Church, and we go to church".

Of course, this is all silly to non-believers.
 
Batman said:
I think it is helpful for believers to see the Church from two perspectives.

The first is The Church(upper case) as ordained by God:
Matt 16:18-20 "And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it."
This is a spiritual Church. According to Jesus, it is His Church. It resides in the spirit of all believers. It is eternal according to Scripture. In this Church there are no denominations.

The second is churches(lower case). These are worldly institutions. There is no doubt that 'churches' created and maintained by man are often manipulative, greedy and corrupt. They do much good but they also do much evil. They often do what they must to survive in the politics of the day. They are imperfect and will someday cease to exist(like all things made by man).

Christians could say, "We are The Church, and we go to church".

Of course, this is all silly to non-believers.
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I totally understand that. I may have anarcho-capitalist beliefs but I don't belong to the Mises Institute
 
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