Kliavkoff (not a ballet dancer but the PAC commissioner) - Takes On the Big 12

[OlyDuck]

You simply can't compare anything that happened in the 70's to what is CFB now. In the 70's, CFB wasn't a multi billion dollar business. Picking up MWC teams isn't going to move the needle one iota for a TV contract, as no one is tuning in to see Fresno State or Utah State or San Diego State play anyone from the PAC. Air Force may get some viewers as people like to watch their crazy ass offense.

Losing any more established P5 programs from the PAC is the end of the PAC. In all honesty, I think it is simply a matter of time before the PAC gets dismantled, as they just lost the heart and soul of the conference. If ND doesn't get what they want on a TV deal and join the B1G - it will be announced immediately another PAC team joining them in the B1G, most likely Stanford (though I'd rather Oregon, but ND will want their annual game with Stanford, and the B1G is all about academics and Oregon isn't a big academic school)

it wasnt even 10 years ago that Utah and TCU moved up and they seem to be doing fine and better than they were because of the move up.

 

[Deep Creek]

it wasnt even 10 years ago that Utah and TCU moved up and they seem to be doing fine and better than they were because of the move up.

Aren’t TCU and Utah the only two G5s to have been added to P5s until the new Big 12s come in? While they may not have been “elite” TCU had a Co champ in ‘14 and Utah was a champ last year. And I’d say those two have been better than many teams that have been in those conferences for a lot longer.

 

[OlyDuck]

Those schools don't equal AZ, ASU, CU or Utah.

Had the PAC added BYU, SDSU, UNLV, and maybe Houston and those markets say15-20 years ago they may well have developed into a very valuable property for the PAC today but that ship has sailed and as WT said it's a different ballgame now, if those schools were as valuable as you think the networks would have made the PAC move on them several years ago.

they werent and arent worth more. i said they would be about equal. their tv markets arent the same but their on field product is better. look at their recent games against Pac schools. in particular those 4. SDSU beat Pav Champ Utah and Arizona last year. UCLA in 19. ranked Arizona State in 18. yes they also lost to Stanford and Colorado in that time.
keep going you see more wins against ASU, Stanford, Cal (throw in BYU, Cinci and Houston, 3 schools moving to the BigXII)
Boise wins against WSU, OSU, Oregon, washington, Arizona. losses to WSU, washington.
Fresno beat UCLA a couple times, ASU losses to USC, Oregon and Washington in the more recent. their longer time isnt as pretty as they have had some ups and downs.
even Nevada whos people dont think as much of beat Cal, OSU, WSU, losses to Oregon, WSU, and Arizona.
i dont see how this is much different than Arizona and Colorado coming in 1-8, 3-6, 2-7 year after year of battling for last place.

 

[OlyDuck]

Aren’t TCU and Utah the only two G5s to have been added to P5s until the new Big 12s come in? While they may not have been “elite” TCU had a Co champ in ‘14 and Utah was a champ last year. And I’d say those two have been better than many teams that have been in those conferences for a lot longer.

depends how you consider the Big East.

 

[Deep Creek]

depends how you consider the Big East.

Good point. I think they were considered a step above the MWC that TCU and Utah came from. But one could also argue the MEC was damn good when Boise, TCU, Utah, BYU and SDSU were battling.

 

[OlyDuck]

Good point. I think they were considered a step above the MWC that TCU and Utah came from. But one could also argue the MEC was damn good when Boise, TCU, Utah, BYU and SDSU were battling.

actually what people forget is the speculation of that conference never came to be seen because Utah and BYU left before Boise got there. the announcement was made they would join but they never played in conference together. BYU TCU and Utah (and SDSU) in 2010
TCU, Boise and SDSU in 11
Boise Fresno SDSU in 12.

 

[Deep Creek]

actually what people forget is the speculation of that conference never came to be seen because Utah and BYU left before Boise got there. the announcement was made they would join but they never played in conference together. BYU TCU and Utah (and SDSU) in 2010
TCU, Boise and SDSU in 11
Boise Fresno SDSU in 12.

Don’t remember that. I know TCU bounced around a lot before settling in the Big 12. They beat USC in the Sun Bowl and Wisconsin in the Rose Bowl prior to moving to P5.

 

[trojanfan12]

You simply can't compare anything that happened in the 70's to what is CFB now. In the 70's, CFB wasn't a multi billion dollar business. Picking up MWC teams isn't going to move the needle one iota for a TV contract, as no one is tuning in to see Fresno State or Utah State or San Diego State play anyone from the PAC. Air Force may get some viewers as people like to watch their crazy ass offense.

Losing any more established P5 programs from the PAC is the end of the PAC. In all honesty, I think it is simply a matter of time before the PAC gets dismantled, as they just lost the heart and soul of the conference. If ND doesn't get what they want on a TV deal and join the B1G - it will be announced immediately another PAC team joining them in the B1G, most likely Stanford (though I'd rather Oregon, but ND will want their annual game with Stanford, and the B1G is all about academics and Oregon isn't a big academic school)

Initially, they likely don't move the needle much. But give them a couple of seasons worth of recruiting and improving their facilities and they'll start to catch up. Then folks will watch them more.

The question would be if they can catch up quickly enough to keep the conference from collapsing?

 

[NewPhoneWhoDis]

it wasnt even 10 years ago that Utah and TCU moved up and they seem to be doing fine and better than they were because of the move up.

The issue is -- the PAC has no team in the conference that moves the needle anymore. You take USC out of the PAC and lose the best program the conference had to offer. It is the same with the Big 12 -- you take Texas and OU out of the Big 12 and you've removed the best programs the conference had to offer.

The SEC and B1G were already far and away the top two conferences, now those two conferences add the premier programs from Pac and Big 12. There is no schedule a team in the Pac or Big 12 can play once those teams are removed that could compare to the schedules the B1G and SEC will play. They'd have essentially no path to the CFP and no team either school adds will bring the value the teams they lost had.

I'm sure the Pac will try to add teams, but without hesitation, if the B1G or SEC come calling, every team would jumping ship and leave. It all comes down to ND right now. If ND told the B1G tomorrow they want to join, the B1G could pick any team in the PAC and they are leaving to join the B1G.

It is why you saw Phil Knight calling the conferences for Oregon. He wants to do everything he can to get Oregon off a sinking ship.

 

[NewPhoneWhoDis]

Initially, they likely don't move the needle much. But give them a couple of seasons worth of recruiting and improving their facilities and they'll start to catch up. Then folks will watch them more.

The question would be if they can catch up quickly enough to keep the conference from collapsing?

The SEC and B1G took the blue blood programs with the largest fan bases and largest television markets. There isn't a team the PAC could add that will be able to bring anything remotely close to what the teams who left gave them.

You could combine the entire PAC and Big 12 and you still wouldn't come close to what the SEC and B1G offer and the amount of matchups they can put out. If ND joins the B1G -- it will only further bury the PAC, because they will hand pick who they want to pair with them -- most likely Stanford.

So adding MWC teams may allow them to keep the conference name, but they will have zero say in the CFP, as there is no chance they have AQ's, and it'd be really tough for those two conferences to get the SOS needed to be taken serious, as I guarantee teams in the B1G and SEC stop with premier OOC games, because of how hard their conference schedule will be.

 

[trojanfan12]

The SEC and B1G took the blue blood programs with the largest fan bases and largest television markets. There isn't a team the PAC could add that will be able to bring anything remotely close to what the teams who left gave them.

True, but the same thing can be said with Texas and Oklahoma leaving the Big 12. Who is the Big 12 going to add that moves the needle or increases viewrship? The Arizona schools?

Obviously, SDSU isn't going to ever move the needle like USC or UCLA (well, maybe UCLA lol), but if they can catch up to what's left of the PAC, they can bring some of that LA market and more importantly to the conference, keep a presence in SoCal for recruiting.

Will it work? I wouldn't hold my breath, especially if Arizona is more interested in establishing a basketball rivalry with Kansas than they are in staying in the PAC. But it may be worth a try.

 

[OlyDuck]

The SEC and B1G took the blue blood programs with the largest fan bases and largest television markets. There isn't a team the PAC could add that will be able to bring anything remotely close to what the teams who left gave them.

You could combine the entire PAC and Big 12 and you still wouldn't come close to what the SEC and B1G offer and the amount of matchups they can put out. If ND joins the B1G -- it will only further bury the PAC, because they will hand pick who they want to pair with them -- most likely Stanford.

So adding MWC teams may allow them to keep the conference name, but they will have zero say in the CFP, as there is no chance they have AQ's, and it'd be really tough for those two conferences to get the SOS needed to be taken serious, as I guarantee teams in the B1G and SEC stop with premier OOC games, because of how hard their conference schedule will be.

how hard their conference schedule will be is too be seen and will still only impact a few teams.

sorry but Wisconsin, @Indiana, Illinois, @USC, @Rutgers, Michigan, Purdue, @Northwestern, UCLA isnt going to shake the SOS needle off the charts.

 

[Deep Creek]

The issue is -- the PAC has no team in the conference that moves the needle anymore. You take USC out of the PAC and lose the best program the conference had to offer. It is the same with the Big 12 -- you take Texas and OU out of the Big 12 and you've removed the best programs the conference had to offer.

The SEC and B1G were already far and away the top two conferences, now those two conferences add the premier programs from Pac and Big 12. There is no schedule a team in the Pac or Big 12 can play once those teams are removed that could compare to the schedules the B1G and SEC will play. They'd have essentially no path to the CFP and no team either school adds will bring the value the teams they lost had.

I'm sure the Pac will try to add teams, but without hesitation, if the B1G or SEC come calling, every team would jumping ship and leave. It all comes down to ND right now. If ND told the B1G tomorrow they want to join, the B1G could pick any team in the PAC and they are leaving to join the B1G.

It is why you saw Phil Knight calling the conferences for Oregon. He wants to do everything he can to get Oregon off a sinking ship.

Couldn’t the same be said for the B1G if Ohio State, Michigan and Penn State were removed? Or for the SEC if Bama, Florida, LSU and Georgia were removed?

 

[OlyDuck]

The issue is -- the PAC has no team in the conference that moves the needle anymore. You take USC out of the PAC and lose the best program the conference had to offer. It is the same with the Big 12 -- you take Texas and OU out of the Big 12 and you've removed the best programs the conference had to offer.

The SEC and B1G were already far and away the top two conferences, now those two conferences add the premier programs from Pac and Big 12. There is no schedule a team in the Pac or Big 12 can play once those teams are removed that could compare to the schedules the B1G and SEC will play. They'd have essentially no path to the CFP and no team either school adds will bring the value the teams they lost had.

I'm sure the Pac will try to add teams, but without hesitation, if the B1G or SEC come calling, every team would jumping ship and leave. It all comes down to ND right now. If ND told the B1G tomorrow they want to join, the B1G could pick any team in the PAC and they are leaving to join the B1G.

It is why you saw Phil Knight calling the conferences for Oregon. He wants to do everything he can to get Oregon off a sinking ship.

no team that moves the needle per you?
the Pac loses 2 teams who have never been to the playoff
the Pac still has 2 teams that have made the playoff. 1 of which has a playoff win.
the Pac still has 2 other teams who have still been closer to the playoff than the 2 they lose.

 

[Deep Creek]

no team that moves the needle per you?
the Pac loses 2 teams who have never been to the playoff
the Pac still has 2 teams that have made the playoff. 1 of which has a playoff win.
the Pac still has 2 other teams who have still been closer to the playoff than the 2 they lose.

You are interpreting “ moving the needle” as competence on the football field. That doesn’t matter a damn bit.

 

[Wild Turkey]

Couldn’t the same be said for the B1G if Ohio State, Michigan and Penn State were removed? Or for the SEC if Bama, Florida, LSU and Georgia were removed?

In the SEC you could take Bama and Georgia move them to the Big 12 and the SEC could just add Clemson and FSU and I wouldn't see the payday change much (assuming Texas and OU are still in).

I think the SEC could survive any two programs leaving but 4 would hurt badly.

Now in the B1G if you take out Michigan and Ohio State it's a massive problem.

 

[OlyDuck]

You are interpreting “ moving the needle” as competence on the football field. That doesn’t matter a damn bit.

really? so a conference of Arizona, Georgia Tech, New mexico State, Kansas, vandy, Duke, UConn, UMass, Northwestern and FIU no team more than 3 wins
means the same as UCF, NC State, Minn, Purdue, Northern illinois, Nevada, Arizona State, Arkansas, Kansas State and SMU all 8 or 9 wins?
success on the field doesn't matter? na

 

[Deep Creek]

really? so a conference of Arizona, Georgia Tech, New mexico State, Kansas, vandy, Duke, UConn, UMass, Northwestern and FIU no team more than 3 wins
means the same as UCF, NC State, Minn, Purdue, Northern illinois, Nevada, Arizona State, Arkansas, Kansas State and SMU all 8 or 9 wins?
success on the field doesn't matter? na

Do you really believe the B1G added Rutgers and Maryland because of their football competence?

 

[NewPhoneWhoDis]

Couldn’t the same be said for the B1G if Ohio State, Michigan and Penn State were removed? Or for the SEC if Bama, Florida, LSU and Georgia were removed?

Absolutely -- but...............they weren't removed. If OSU, UM and PSU left for the PAC -- the B1G would be in the same boat as the PAC.

When you remove the premier teams from any conference -- it is going to absolutely kill that conference. No one is going to take the Big 12 serious without OU and Texas. And the Pac wasn't taken serious when they had USC over the last 10 years and now that they finally look like they may get a chance to turn it around and compete nationally -- they are no longer in the Pac.

 

[NewPhoneWhoDis]

really? so a conference of Arizona, Georgia Tech, New mexico State, Kansas, vandy, Duke, UConn, UMass, Northwestern and FIU no team more than 3 wins
means the same as UCF, NC State, Minn, Purdue, Northern illinois, Nevada, Arizona State, Arkansas, Kansas State and SMU all 8 or 9 wins?
success on the field doesn't matter? na

It is all about location, popularity and in many teams case, the conference you are in.

Minnesota, Purdue, Northwestern and Arkansas are only making a ridiculous amount of money because they happen to be in a conference with Ohio State, Penn State, Michigan, Alabama, LSU, Georgia, etc. and they get to play those teams, which brings in their huge ratings each game.

Take any of those 4 teams out of the SEC or B1G and they'd be no different than any of the other teams you mentioned, because they don't play in a big market, they don't have 3, 4+ million people watching their games and they aren't national brands.

I'd love to have Kansas, Duke and Arizona in the B1G.........................for basketball. They are worthless as football programs.