More Michigan Cheating

Right, so there is no "rule" violation in the B10. This is just a determination being made by the commissioner, given broad leeway to independently make that determination. Hence the controversy. There is no B10 rule Michigan violated in plain text.

The allegation is that it violates the conference's sportsmanship policy. If you want to argue the difference between a rule and a policy, be my guest. That seems like a distinction without a difference IMO.
 
I think they can say Harbaugh failed to control his program an allowed it to go rouge. If he were so oblivious that all of this was going on around him. Harbaugh is still responsible as the captain of the ship.
I'm sure many are hoping that is what it is. But reality is -- one low level staffer on a coaching staff of 25 isn't "all this going on around him". The guys job was to figure out signs of other teams. As has been stated on here -- it is completely fine to trade info with other teams, so why wouldn't Harbaugh think that is exactly what was done?

Harbaugh will get punished in some way, as he is responsible and he can't just say, I didn't know. But what the punishment will be, will be based on if he knew or not. If he knew, he should be fired anyway.
 
The allegation is that it violates the conference's sportsmanship policy. If you want to argue the difference between a rule and a policy, be my guest. That seems like a distinction without a difference IMO.
Right. That's it. There's no text to argue against, it's an opinion. And I think it's a wrong opinion based on the information presented; which is what MIchigan will argue if/when they challenge it.
 
That may very well end up being what happens. I'm expecting Harbaugh to be suspended for Penn State an Maryland and then be back for OSU.
Unless it is announced today -- they won't suspend him any later this week, as they will want to give UM time to figure out who will be the HC for the game. That's why I think it will be Maryland and that's it.
 
Michigan hired stallions. Michigan didn't hire the people he was having do this. HE personally hired them. Certainly an important distinction here.

I'm not sure how that's any different, other than the exchange of money, than having prior opponents collect your information in person and send them to your future opponents. That's functionally identical outcomes.

it's not dude.

this has been explained to you like a hundred times now.
 
Unless it is announced today -- they won't suspend him any later this week, as they will want to give UM time to figure out who will be the HC for the game. That's why I think it will be Maryland and that's it.

Thought I read that they gave Michigan until Wednesday to respond?
 
Right. That's it. There's no text to argue against, it's an opinion. And I think it's a wrong opinion based on the information presented; which is what MIchigan will argue if/when they challenge it.

The sportsmanship policy isn't a text? I don't know all the ins and outs of the Big Ten but that feels hard to believe.
 
Thought I read that they gave Michigan until Wednesday to respond?
They only gave them a notice of allegations, as far as I know. Basically, it lets them know they could possibly give the program some form of punishment.

Edited to add: I truly haven't really followed this too much. I only skimmed an article. So it could be Wednesday to repsond.
 
The NCAA has not investigated if Ryan Day is SATAN so that theory is still in play!
Ryan Day is not satan …. That is just silly
Then why was michigan doing what they were doing for years when nobody else was in order to gain an illegal advantage?
Maybe because no one was smart enough to send someone to watch a future opponent play? I mean these people weren’t smart enough to vary their signs?
 
it's not dude.

this has been explained to you like a hundred times now.
No, it isn't. "it isn't the same" is not an explanation. That's a "I want it to be different but can't explain how".

A 3rd party giving you scouted information on a future opponent, and specifically documented (and decoded) information on their signs is literally the same thing. In fact, I'd argue teams doing this is even more a violation of the NCAA rule and/or the B10 sportsmanship policy than anything MIchigan has been accused of.
 
The sportsmanship policy isn't a text? I don't know all the ins and outs of the Big Ten but that feels hard to believe.
"The Big Ten Conference expects all contests involving a member institution to be conducted without compromise to any fundamental element of sportsmanship. Such fundamental elements include integrity of the competition, civility toward all, and respect, particularly toward opponents and officials."

The plain language of the sportsmanship policy supports the Big 10 commissioner’s exercise of authority to unilaterally impose “standard disciplinary actions” without seeking any other approvals or waiting for the NCAA
 
Yep and anyone that he hired/convinced/cajoled into filming signals for him was acting as his, and by extension - UM's, agent. This idea that "it wasn't him doing it means UM is off the hook" ignores the idea of agency.
The UM fans here have no concept of "Agency" as you have pointed out. I've posted it a dozen times. Water off the back.
 
Whatever you say Cheater.

Portrait Of A Lady On Fire Neon Rated GIF by NEON
Children only speak when spoken to. Pipe down and let the adults talk.
 
No, it isn't. "it isn't the same" is not an explanation. That's a "I want it to be different but can't explain how".

A 3rd party giving you scouted information on a future opponent, and specifically documented (and decoded) information on their signs is literally the same thing. In fact, I'd argue teams doing this is even more a violation of the NCAA rule and/or the B10 sportsmanship policy than anything MIchigan has been accused of.

sigh

I'm a Regional Manager okay?

If I personally hire someone to do something for me in the course of doing work for my company the company is liable if that person is injured etc because I am paying them to do so. Whether it's my funds or not is irrelevant.

This is no different. They're being hired by a representative of Michigan to do work that benefits Michigan. Not the representative.
 
This isn't coaches talking to coaches. This is teams using information gathered in person, collecting it, deciphering it and then giving it to future opponents of the team you played. That's pretty much the definition of in person scouting.
I wish you understood this is the first and only cogent thing you have typed in this entire thread. 140+ pages tells me you won't understand that.
 
sigh

I'm a Regional Manager okay?

If I personally hire someone to do something for me in the course of doing work for my company the company is liable if that person is injured etc because I am paying them to do so. Whether it's my funds or not is irrelevant.

This is no different. They're being hired by a representative of Michigan to do work that benefits Michigan. Not the representative.
But we aren't talking liability laws here. We're talking NCAA rules. And NCAA rules very specifically say that anything not called out as illegal, is by definition legal. The rule in question about in person scouting has absolutely no language in it that would limit it to only people hired for money. If the argument is that a 3rd party providing information to a school, a 3rd party who got the information via in person scouting, is illegal; it's irrelevant WHO that 3rd party was.

We're now being attacked by the B10 commissioner after the presidents urged him to under a massively vague sportsmanship policy that he has unilateral ability to determine; because so far it would seem that there is no movement on the NCAA determination. Only to find out that some of those same members previously conspired to scout Michigan in person and provide that information to our future opponents. Sorry if I am skeptical of this clearly skewed enforcement and/or rule interpretations.
 
But we aren't talking liability laws here. We're talking NCAA rules. And NCAA rules very specifically say that anything not called out as illegal, is by definition legal. The rule in question about in person scouting has absolutely no language in it that would limit it to only people hired for money. If the argument is that a 3rd party providing information to a school, a 3rd party who got the information via in person scouting, is illegal; it's irrelevant WHO that 3rd party was.

it extends to everything man. This is why boosters can get a school in trouble

They're not employees of the school but they're acting on behalf of the school solely to benefit the school

That would be an enormous loophole dude. Boosters could've just handed kids money right on TV then.
 
If you want to frame it like that. I agree. Talking about a level playing field is asinine in college football though. There is no such thing as a level playing field in CFB. You have teams spending more on locker room upgrades than some teams have in their entire football budget for multiple years.

CFB is, and always will be, the have and the have nots.
You can only control what you can control. So where you can you enforce the rules and hammer those that down follow.
 
it extends to everything man. This is why boosters can get a school in trouble

They're not employees of the school but they're acting on behalf of the school solely to benefit the school

That would be an enormous loophole dude. Boosters could've just handed kids money right on TV then.
No, boosters get a school in trouble because in recruiting rules they are SPECIFICALLY called out by rule as someone who can get a school in trouble.

As discussed at length, the rule in question is a blanket statement. "Off-campus, in-person scouting of future opponents (in the same season) is prohibited, except as provided in Bylaws 11.6.1.1 and 11.6.1.2."

It does not mention how that in person scouting is done or who is doing it. Secondary bylaws (listed above) mention "institutional staff members" -- which the NCAA defines in ANOTHER bylaw (14.9) as:
any individual, excluding a student employee, who performs work for the institution or the athletics department, regardless of whether he or she receives compensation for such work.

So what is it? Is a 3rd party scouting and giving you in person scouting data illegal or not? There is no world in which one of these actions is legal, and the other is not.
 
Ryan Day is not satan …. That is just silly

Maybe because no one was smart enough to send someone to watch a future opponent play? I mean these people weren’t smart enough to vary their signs?
Of course Satan is in Tuscaloosa.
 
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