What If JFK Wasn’t a Conspiracy

Regarding a bolt action leaving brass, if only one shot was taken and the next round wasn't cycled, then the empty brass would remain within the rifle. No need for a brass catcher.
 
Bayou Tiger said:
They also conclude that it was a conspiracy. hahaha That's called cherry-picking when you pick and choose the parts that support your argument while ignoring the parts that contradict it.

From the conclusions of the HSCA....


Conclusions regarding the Kennedy assassination​

On the Kennedy assassination, the HSCA concluded in its 1979 report that:[1]

  1. Lee Harvey Oswald fired three shots at Kennedy. The second and third shots Oswald fired struck the President. The third shot he fired killed the President.
  2. Scientific acoustical evidence establishes a high probability that at least two gunmen fired at the President. Other scientific evidence does not preclude the possibility of two gunmen firing at the President. Scientific evidence negates some specific conspiracy allegations.
  3. The committee believes, on the basis of the evidence available to it, that Kennedy was probably assassinated as a result of a conspiracy. The committee was unable to identify the other gunmen or the extent of the conspiracy.
    • The committee believes, on the basis of the evidence available to it, that the Soviet Government was not involved in the assassination of Kennedy.
    • The committee believes, on the basis of the evidence available to it, that the Cuban Government was not involved in the assassination of Kennedy.
    • The committee believes, on the basis of the evidence available to it, that anti-Castro Cuban groups, as groups, were not involved in the assassination of Kennedy, but that the available evidence does not preclude the possibility that individual members may have been involved.
    • The committee believes, on the basis of the evidence available to it, that the national syndicate of organized crime, as a group, was not involved in the assassination of Kennedy, but that the available evidence does not preclude the possibility that individual members may have been involved. (Like Marcello)
    • The Secret Service, Federal Bureau of Investigation, and Central Intelligence Agency were not involved in the assassination of Kennedy.
  4. Agencies and departments of the U.S. Government performed with varying degrees of competency in the fulfillment of their duties. President Kennedy did not receive adequate protection. A thorough and reliable investigation into the responsibility of Lee Harvey Oswald for the assassination was conducted. The investigation into the possibility of conspiracy in the assassination was inadequate. The conclusions of the investigations were arrived at in good faith, but presented in a fashion that was too definitive.
The Committee further concluded that it was probable that:

  • four shots were fired
  • the fourth shot came from a second assassin located on the grassy knoll, but missed. The HSCA concluded the existence and location of this alleged fourth shot based on the later discredited Dallas Police Department Dictabelt recording analysis.
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I’m glad you called this out. This was just another aspect that’s given this thing continued legs.

They had the report ready to say there was no conspiracy. With exception of a few tweaks time and technology gave us, this lined up with the WC report.

Right as they were about to release it evidence came out of the Dictabelt found from one of the motorbikes. It didn’t have audio of the shots. But there were four anomalies in the in there recording that acoustic experts said COULD be the shots.

Rather then delay the report anticipated, and in respect of the budget they had no more of, they tacked this on and moved in.

It reminds me of the WC report that was rushed out because LBJ had an election to win and didn’t need this hanging out there during the run up.

The Dictabelt is a whole other story that was eventually discredited as being recording in Dealey Plaza.
 
Orlando_Eagles said:
I just finished Case Closed by Gerald Posner. It’s a well laid out case that the JFK assassination was just as it was called. A lone shooter. No conspiracy. The book may be decades old….but most of the sound facts that have been uncovered since it came only only prove it more.

I’ve always kept an open mind to all the conspiracies. Unless it could be proven otherwise it was possible that anything happened. I want to believe it’s the mafia or something insane like that. So I challenged myself to read it.

It’s a long read, and it really starts out dragging over Oswalds life. But, it has to do this to lay things out for later. After this the book takes off and approaches each and every major theory with sound logic and reason.

There was plenty that happened on this bad day, and after, that left the door open to speculation. But, as technology has gotten better it just keeps pointing back to it being just what it was…..a lone, deranged killer.

No matter where you lie on what happened that day, or who did it, this read is a good challenge to take on and read through open mindedly.

Anyone else read this book before? If so what did you think?
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Haven't read the book. The problems with the assassination have always been (1) that Oswald was professionally trained and looked like a hired gun, and (2) that Jack Ruby silenced Oswald 2 days later, and then conveniently died in prison.

The Warren Commission always seemed rushed, with a preconceived finding that would more bring closure than determine actual truth.
 
Cobrabit said:
Regarding a bolt action leaving brass, if only one shot was taken and the next round wasn't cycled, then the empty brass would remain within the rifle. No need for a brass catcher.
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Didn't he fire 3 shots?
 
Mofo said:
Haven't read the book. The problems with the assassination have always been (1) that Oswald was professionally trained and looked like a hired gun, and (2) that Jack Ruby silenced Oswald 2 days later, and then conveniently died in prison.

The Warren Commission always seemed rushed, with a preconceived finding that would more bring closure than determine actual truth.
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I don’t believe that Oswald ever showed professional training more than the Marines gave him. Reading up more on him just fleshes that out more.

Ruby is more peculiar. But, knowing what I know about them they have gone through hell the last 40 years and everyone’s come out with their story. No one has a story of Ruby having any substantial connection with the mob.

Ruby was deranged himself. He was always a hot head with judgement issues. He was a ticking time bomb himself. One bit I never knew is the ad taken out below the day of the assassination. Ruby was dead set that someone was trying to frame the Jews in the community for being pinned with the killing. He not only felt this strongly and was unstable from it right after….he spent the last few years in jail telling people that he knows millions of Jews are being tortured in the basement of the jail.

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He was unhinged, and he was there the day of the prisoner transfer. There was more at play than his shaky thin possible mob connections.
 
Mofo said:
Haven't read the book. The problems with the assassination have always been (1) that Oswald was professionally trained and looked like a hired gun, and (2) that Jack Ruby silenced Oswald 2 days later, and then conveniently died in prison.

The Warren Commission always seemed rushed, with a preconceived finding that would more bring closure than determine actual truth.
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really gotta read the book if you have any real interest in the subject. It painstakingly goes thru all this stuff. It’s been a while since I’ve read it but it still sticks with me.

if you read the book it’s OBVIOUS that Oswald was not a hired gun. The book chronicles his entire life right down to his grades in grammar school. He was a misfit his whole life. Never found a place to fit in.

The ruby thing is certainly bizarre but that in and of itself doesnt make for a conspiracy. He really thought he’d be hailed as a hero.
 
dbldwn711 said:
really gotta read the book if you have any real interest in the subject. It painstakingly goes thru all this stuff. It’s been a while since I’ve read it but it still sticks with me.

if you read the book it’s OBVIOUS that Oswald was not a hired gun. The book chronicles his entire life right down to his grades in grammar school. He was a misfit his whole life. Never found a place to fit in.

The ruby thing is certainly bizarre but that in and of itself doesnt make for a conspiracy. He really thought he’d be hailed as a hero.
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Well, after reading it I think LHO found places to fit in. He just never accepted a place to fit in. He was a damn odd piece of work.

As I read this I thought of the parallels between LHO and Ruby. Both thought they were doing what’s right. Both thought they would be hailed for their actions (though in different circles). Both had shit for childhoods and grew up with warped senses on life.
 
Orlando_Eagles said:
Well, after reading it I think LHO found places to fit in. He just never accepted a place to fit in. He was a damn odd piece of work.

As I read this I thought of the parallels between LHO and Ruby. Both thought they were doing what’s right. Both thought they would be hailed for their actions (though in different circles). Both had shit for childhoods and grew up with warped senses on life.
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well said. Oswald certainly had the support of a lot of people who weren’t family to him growing up. He just was looking for something “More”. It’s why he went to Russia. It’s why he tried to go to cuba.
 
Cobrabit said:
Regarding a bolt action leaving brass, if only one shot was taken and the next round wasn't cycled, then the empty brass would remain within the rifle. No need for a brass catcher.
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Cobrabit said:
Responding to the grassy knoll hypothesis.
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appreciate your insights. Thx. It’s very helpful.

so can I ask where you stand on this thing? Do you care enough to have an opinion on the shooting or is it just another event in history for you? For me, I spent a lot of time in HS studying this event so it’s always been of interest to me. I always believed it was a conspiracy from the time I studied it in HS. We spent 4 days a week and hour a day for almost 5 months studying it. I was made to read all the conspiracy books. Years later, when Case Closed came out, my sister bought it for me as a Christmas gift. she worked at a bookstore at the time and the author came in for a book signing. I opened the gift and was disappointed bc i knew the book supported the lone gunman theory which I wholeheartedly disagreed with. The book sat in my room for a long time till I finally gave in and read it. IMO it was so well done it completely changed my view on the subject. Each time I try to get behind a conspiracy theory I just can’t get there bc of the lack of evidence for me
 
dbldwn711 said:
appreciate your insights. Thx. It’s very helpful.

so can I ask where you stand on this thing? Do you care enough to have an opinion on the shooting or is it just another event in history for you? For me, I spent a lot of time in HS studying this event so it’s always been of interest to me. I always believed it was a conspiracy from the time I studied it in HS. We spent 4 days a week and hour a day for almost 5 months studying it. I was made to read all the conspiracy books. Years later, when Case Closed came out, my sister bought it for me as a Christmas gift. she worked at a bookstore at the time and the author came in for a book signing. I opened the gift and was disappointed bc i knew the book supported the lone gunman theory which I wholeheartedly disagreed with. The book sat in my room for a long time till I finally gave in and read it. IMO it was so well done it completely changed my view on the subject. Each time I try to get behind a conspiracy theory I just can’t get there bc of the lack of evidence for me
Click to expand...

Never looked much into the conspiracy theory further than watching the movie years ago as it happened well before my time. I find it interesting, but not enough to dive down the rabbit hole for something that will likely be debated for years still to come.
 
This conspiracy stuff has been hashed and rehashed since I was a kid. JFK was assassinated when I was barely 3 years old, the lone assassin (allegedly) Oswald was murdered 2 days later by a mob connected wack job named Jack Ruby and the Warren Commission report as well as subsequent books and assorted theories rely on eye witness testimony all the while discrediting eye witness testimony that doesn't fit the narrative presented. Nothing about this case is obvious unless you want it to be.

I find it difficult to believe that a half wit like Oswald acted alone in plotting or carrying out the crime and even harder to believe that he made those shots from that far away in such quick fashion with a bolt action rifle. Making JFK's brain and skull splatter backwards towards the direction of the bullet(s) seems like a fantasy, but maybe the Russians taught him some James Bond type shit when he was there.

Either way, regardless of whether you believe Oswald was a lone wolf assassin or a lackey for the mob, Cuba, LBJ, the CIA or any combination of these characters I doubt that we are ever going to know the truth. Too much time has passed and all the parties involved are long gone.
 
dbldwn711 said:
appreciate your insights. Thx. It’s very helpful.

so can I ask where you stand on this thing? Do you care enough to have an opinion on the shooting or is it just another event in history for you? For me, I spent a lot of time in HS studying this event so it’s always been of interest to me. I always believed it was a conspiracy from the time I studied it in HS. We spent 4 days a week and hour a day for almost 5 months studying it. I was made to read all the conspiracy books. Years later, when Case Closed came out, my sister bought it for me as a Christmas gift. she worked at a bookstore at the time and the author came in for a book signing. I opened the gift and was disappointed bc i knew the book supported the lone gunman theory which I wholeheartedly disagreed with. The book sat in my room for a long time till I finally gave in and read it. IMO it was so well done it completely changed my view on the subject. Each time I try to get behind a conspiracy theory I just can’t get there bc of the lack of evidence for me
Click to expand...
Well said. Admittedly it was you who mentioned this story and got me interested. I enjoy the idea of having my ideas on such things challenged. And while I believe conspiracies exist I’m always looking for what logic and evidence shows the most. Especially after 60 years. The bigger the conspiracy the harder it is to keep. Shit gets out.

What struck me most on this is it was written nearly 30 years ago if I’ve got that right. And I’ve done a rabbit hole dive to see if anything credible came up to counter this since then. Can’t find it.
 
Cobrabit said:
Never looked much into the conspiracy theory further than watching the movie years ago as it happened well before my time. I find it interesting, but not enough to dive down the rabbit hole for something that will likely be debated for years still to come.
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It’s such a cluster fuck of competing ideas and theories. I get it.

That movie. I’ll throw this out as I’ve been looking for an opening for it (not pointed at you).

That movie was a fucking disservice. That’s what soured me on it….reading up on just who Garrison was. Not the noble crusader of the truth like Costner portrays.

As I read this book (it goes into some good depth with Garrison and his nonsense) I kept hearing Costner….”back and to the left. Back and to the left”. Oh that had me convinced at the time. Until I read up on things more.
 
Orlando_Eagles said:
Well said. Admittedly it was you who mentioned this story and got me interested. I enjoy the idea of having my ideas on such things challenged. And while I believe conspiracies exist I’m always looking for what logic and evidence shows the most. Especially after 60 years. The bigger the conspiracy the harder it is to keep. Shit gets out.

What struck me most on this is it was written nearly 30 years ago if I’ve got that right. And I’ve done a rabbit hole dive to see if anything credible came up to counter this since then. Can’t find it.
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I haven’t either. I’ve seen some articles that question a source or two that posner cites. That’s to be expected given the number of citations he uses but I haven’t found anything that definitively undermines it. The book as stood the test of time as they say
 
Rex Racer said:
This conspiracy stuff has been hashed and rehashed since I was a kid. JFK was assassinated when I was barely 3 years old, the lone assassin (allegedly) Oswald was murdered 2 days later by a mob connected wack job named Jack Ruby and the Warren Commission report as well as subsequent books and assorted theories rely on eye witness testimony all the while discrediting eye witness testimony that doesn't fit the narrative presented. Nothing about this case is obvious unless you want it to be.

I find it difficult to believe that a half wit like Oswald acted alone in plotting or carrying out the crime and even harder to believe that he made those shots from that far away in such quick fashion with a bolt action rifle. Making JFK's brain and skull splatter backwards towards the direction of the bullet(s) seems like a fantasy, but maybe the Russians taught him some James Bond type shit when he was there.

Either way, regardless of whether you believe Oswald was a lone wolf assassin or a lackey for the mob, Cuba, LBJ, the CIA or any combination of these characters I doubt that we are ever going to know the truth. Too much time has passed and all the parties involved are long gone.
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I’ll agree with you there. My goal in starting this was to have discussion and debate. This thing will never be truly solved. It just can’t be now.

It’s all narrative in the respect that you’re going to latch to things that support what you think and downplay things that don’t support belief.

We will never be able to know. I believe it was a lot of micro decisions before that day, on that day, and after that made this thing wide open for speculation. And here we are 58 years later hotly debating it.
 
Orlando_Eagles said:
It’s such a cluster fuck of competing ideas and theories. I get it.

That movie. I’ll throw this out as I’ve been looking for an opening for it (not pointed at you).

That movie was a fucking disservice. That’s what soured me on it….reading up on just who Garrison was. Not the noble crusader of the truth like Costner portrays.

As I read this book (it goes into some good depth with Garrison and his nonsense) I kept hearing Costner….”back and to the left. Back and to the left”. Oh that had me convinced at the time. Until I read up on things more.
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Most movies are a disservice of real events. Entertainment is the only goal with plenty of liberties taken for dramatic effect. Even documentaries can't (or wont) tell the whole story/truth.
 
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