The Source of COVID

DraftNerd

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I’m going to try something here. I’m concerned it’s too close to the political arena, but we will see if a scientific discussion can possibly be had.

So…..here’s what’s considered to be a very liberal comedian and pundit riffing on the source of COVID this week.



Now, I came across this on Facebook today….and many comments from those who are not science deniers saying they have lost respect for him, how dare he question science?

This is more of an ethical and moral question that revolves around science. I believe that while there is countless examples of pathogens in nature the point that COVID came from an animal is merely a hypothesis.

Why shouldn’t people who believe in science not ask for a proven answer on if this truly came from an animal, or if it could possibly have been studied in a lab in Wuhan and got out? I mean this exact lab (and many other Chinese labs) has been called out for lax security and safety issues.

How is John Stewart now the guy that both carrying water for deniers and also throwing meat to their base, as opposed to using a satirical approach to make a very good point…..that we should know exactly how this bug took out 3.86 million of us globally (as of today)?
 
MarkOU said:
I answered this 2 weeks ago.

Thread 'Science vs Acedemia' https://hooplanation.com/threads/science-vs-acedemia.8769/
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Interesting. To be fair I rarely click on videos without any words and thoughts offered with it. But I did go back and watch this. Very compelling point. I don’t know who this man is, and I have to resist instant credibility based on a two minute video with him….but he makes a very good point on a problem that exists with science.

At the same time, I remember a lot of unfounded and not peer reviewed nonsense that came out the last year. The troubles really exist in the margins of why peer reviews matter to vetting out scientific theories, and realization that the egg heads have often made science brittle and rigid, thus worthy of healthy skepticism against science itself.

I see your tie to the OP here….that same backlash….the “how dare you question science” is what I saw in those comments elsewhere.

I’m a believer and a skeptic, as any believer in science should be. If science is going to change from having healthy skepticism and questioning by such social pressures it’s not science anymore.
 
It’s not really about “science” per se. Stewart is openly questioning why conversation has been shut down over an explanation that isn’t merely probable, but likely.

‘Science’ may be able to determine more, going forward. Genetic markers on a small section of SARS-CoV-2 look like hallmarks of lab manipulation. There’s no hard evidence to the contrary, the wet market explanation, but perhaps something arises there.

What is clear, is that there have been several attempts at cover-up and deliberate concealment and obfuscation of the truth. The Chinese government denied any possibility of the lab leak theory from the beginning. Workers with COVID-like symptoms were hidden. Chinese researchers who raised the alarm early were silenced, disappeared and in one case, resulted in mysterious death. The CDC was lied to and denied access, the UN’s WHO was manipulated into claiming that airborne transmission was “impossible” and the Chinese government floated claims that visiting U.S. troops somehow spread the illness as part of some vague biowarfare strike.

Discrediting Stewart because he dares to suggest an obvious question isn’t anything to do with science. It’s all about preserving a narrative. I’d have more respect for such people, if they’d simply admit they don’t want to anger China, given that its government will never admit fault, in any circumstance. Shutting down our own conversation though, by falsely invoking “science”, only serves to quash scientific inquiry going forward.
 
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Mofo said:
It’s not really about “science” per se. Stewart is openly questioning why conversation has been shut down over an explanation that isn’t merely probable, but likely.

‘Science’ may be able to determine more, going forward. Genetic markers on a small section of SARS-CoV-2 look like hallmarks of lab manipulation. There’s no hard evidence to the contrary, the wet market explanation, but perhaps something arises there.

What is clear, is that there have been several attempts at cover-up and deliberate concealment and obfuscation of the truth. The Chinese government denied any possibility of the lab leak theory from the beginning. Workers with COVID-like symptoms were hidden. Chinese researchers who raised the alarm early were silenced, disappeared and in one case, resulted in mysterious death. The CDC was lied to and denied access, the UN’s WHO was manipulated into claiming that airborne transmission was “impossible” and the Chinese government floated claims that visiting U.S. troops somehow spread the illness as part of some vague biowarfare strike.

Discrediting Stewart because he dares to suggest an obvious question isn’t anything to do with science. It’s all about preserving a narrative. I’d have more respect for such people, if they’d simply admit they don’t want to anger China, give that its government will never admit fault, in any circumstance. Shutting down our own conversation though, by falsely invoking “science”, only serves to quash scientific inquiry going forward.
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Well said. Thanks for this contribution.

I didn’t post the comments from social media because….why? We all know what they are. But there was a really good comment about how “purity tests” need to stop on each side.

Yes, that’s political (2/10). But, that’s what’s ruining science. I have no doubt that these people hiding behind the cloak of protecting science were merely using it to advance a narrative.

And, scientifically speaking, this practice is a disease at pandemic level itself. I don’t think it’s a rote fear of confronting China, but it is defending a narrative that is fearful of confronting science.

Look, I’m fine with not pushing them on how they handle their own people, as despicable as that is. But when it’s killing all of us the questions need to be asked.

The concept of denying questioning to defend science is beyond asinine.
 
Orlando_Eagles said:
Well said. Thanks for this contribution.

I didn’t post the comments from social media because….why? We all know what they are. But there was a really good comment about how “purity tests” need to stop on each side.

Yes, that’s political (2/10). But, that’s what’s ruining science. I have no doubt that these people hiding behind the cloak of protecting science were merely using it to advance a narrative.

And, scientifically speaking, this practice is a disease at pandemic level itself. I don’t think it’s a rote fear of confronting China, but it is defending a narrative that is fearful of confronting science.

Look, I’m fine with not pushing them on how they handle their own people, as despicable as that is. But when it’s killing all of us the questions need to be asked.

The concept of denying questioning to defend science is beyond asinine.
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Science demands reproducibility and investigation, which is the truly insane part. There’s nothing “settled” that means people aren’t allowed to dare ask a question. Sometimes it’s because politics have gotten a foothold and it’s about fighting between two or more viewpoints that the sides aren’t really interested in having science investigate further.

In this instance, a large segment of the people shouting down the lab leak theory know that the trail is cold, that evidence has been destroyed and that people who should care are being massively uncooperative. It’s the abusive use of technicality to silence discourse, and has nothing to do with science and certainly not objectivity.
 
Mofo said:
Science demands reproducibility and investigation, which is the truly insane part. There’s nothing “settled” that means people aren’t allowed to dare ask a question. Sometimes it’s because politics have gotten a foothold and it’s about fighting between two or more viewpoints that the sides aren’t really interested in having science investigate further.

In this instance, a large segment of the people shouting down the lab leak theory know that the trail is cold, that evidence has been destroyed and that people who should care are being massively uncooperative. It’s the abusive use of technicality to silence discourse, and has nothing to do with science and certainly not objectivity.
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It’s interesting as I’ve seen many comments yesterday that science says there isn’t the markers on the virus that it’s been chemically manipulated in the lab, but you mention there is that evidence.

Which way is up? I think the unique challenges that science has had within their own community and processes has left them open to being massively co-opted by politics and narrative and it’s all truly fucked right now.

To the point where someone always known as being pro to most liberal things is being blasted out by those very supporters for posing a legitimate question and issue.
 
The US has become China's fuck toy. If covid originated just about anywhere other than China, we would know everything by now. Their power and influence is not only in every facet of our American lives but come to find out, we actually pay for them to do dangerous GOF research. When we started to connect the dots on GOF funding from the US, the lab leak theory suddenly became more credible. Why?

We were misdirected early and in a large part by the WHO. While the WHO covered for the CCP, we lost valuable time and information on the origins of covid.

The lab leak was the highest probability being the origins of covid both in Jan 2020 and today. What actually changed in a couple months that got people to open their eyes and start asking more questions?
 
How do you get the truth when the ones assigned to deliver it won't even ask the question?

March 18, 2020 03:57 PM

COVID-19 not man-made, comparative genomic study finds​


"They conclude that the virus is the product of natural evolution, ending any speculation about deliberate genetic engineering," Josie Golding, an epidemic preparedness and response program officer at the Wellcome Trust, who was not involved in the study, said in a statement, calling the results "crucially important to bring an evidence-based view to the rumors that have been circulating about the origins of the virus (SARS-CoV-2) causing COVID-19."

COVID-19 not man-made, comparative genomic study finds

So where's all that evidence of the zoonotic origins of covid I've heard so much about?
 
More of the same bullshit. Just make general statements on behalf of all scientists agreeing and the people will believe anything.

But scientists believe that they can confidently say that the virus wasn't created by humans and the myth going around is nothing more than that, a myth.

cont'd

Narrator: So SARS-CoV-2's origin is no longer a mystery. But where and how it jumped in nature, well, that's a question many are still trying to answer.

How we know the COVID-19 coronavirus wasn't made in a lab
 
Orlando_Eagles said:
It’s interesting as I’ve seen many comments yesterday that science says there isn’t the markers on the virus that it’s been chemically manipulated in the lab, but you mention there is that evidence.

Which way is up? I think the unique challenges that science has had within their own community and processes has left them open to being massively co-opted by politics and narrative and it’s all truly fucked right now.

To the point where someone always known as being pro to most liberal things is being blasted out by those very supporters for posing a legitimate question and issue.
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There's literally zero evidence that the thing comes from nature, except a single (discredited) paper that speculated that because similar viruses have historically come from nature, so too must COVID-19. The wet market theory hasn't been investigated, no smoking gun of a host mammal as a reservoir has ever been shown to have the virus jump to humans. And most telling perhaps, wet markets continue to exist in China.

Meanwhile, the COVID-19 genome has been analyzed and there are signs of genetic manipulation. The laboratory in question happens to be in the same province as where the outbreak first occurred (as Stewart noted), had been cited for lacking safety / containment procedures AND had 3 employees down with a mysterious COVID-like respiratory illness just days before the outbreak was officially reported.

www.wionews.com

Evidence suggests genetic manipulation in COVID-19

Is considering a genetic-manipulation origin for SARS-CoV-2 a conspiracy theory that must be censored? That is the title of a new scientific analysis of the structure of SARS-CoV-2, the coronavirus responsible for the COVID-19 pandemic. In the course of answering that question, the authors...
www.wionews.com www.wionews.com

Yes, it looks insane to suddenly claim that Jon Stewart, a liberal stalwart and beloved icon, must be in league with Ron Johnson and Donald Trump. But that's pretty much what has to be done to discredit the challenge to conformity- assert that Stewart can't think for himself and has been duped by evil racist China-haters. Suffice it to say, Stewart won't be invited back to Colbert's show anytime soon.
 
Mofo said:
There's literally zero evidence that the thing comes from nature, except a single (discredited) paper that speculated that because similar viruses have historically come from nature, so too must COVID-19. The wet market theory hasn't been investigated, no smoking gun of a host mammal as a reservoir has ever been shown to have the virus jump to humans. And most telling perhaps, wet markets continue to exist in China.

Meanwhile, the COVID-19 genome has been analyzed and there are signs of genetic manipulation. The laboratory in question happens to be in the same province as where the outbreak first occurred (as Stewart noted), had been cited for lacking safety / containment procedures AND had 3 employees down with a mysterious COVID-like respiratory illness just days before the outbreak was officially reported.

www.wionews.com

Evidence suggests genetic manipulation in COVID-19

Is considering a genetic-manipulation origin for SARS-CoV-2 a conspiracy theory that must be censored? That is the title of a new scientific analysis of the structure of SARS-CoV-2, the coronavirus responsible for the COVID-19 pandemic. In the course of answering that question, the authors...
www.wionews.com www.wionews.com

Yes, it looks insane to suddenly claim that Jon Stewart, a liberal stalwart and beloved icon, must be in league with Ron Johnson and Donald Trump. But that's pretty much what has to be done to discredit the challenge to conformity- assert that Stewart can't think for himself and has been duped by evil racist China-haters. Suffice it to say, Stewart won't be invited back to Colbert's show anytime soon.
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Yes Stewart will. Colbert was clearly well read in on the act. I would imagine he is as perplexed by the backlash as Stewart is. There was literally versions of “too soon” to be joking about COVID like this.

1. Fuck that narrative nonsense
2. If Satire has to die now we are truly fucked. I think of all the things that the disease of narrative causes to the brain one of them is a loss of understanding satire (look how many dipshits have advanced Onion articles these days as narrative reinforcing).

Here’s the subtle thing that irks me the most. Of course the virus came from nature. Of-FUCKING-course it does. But that stock answer just sidesteps that it could come from nature and have gone into a lab where it escaped. Narratives also kill logical nuances like this.

That’s one piece on my comments to the dipshits on this….the aspect of the virus coming from nature, or wet markets is a HYPOTHESIS. Of course it comes from nature. But that doesn’t mean it wasn’t isolated in a lab (for perfectly noble scientific reasons) and escaped due to lax security and safety of a Chinese lab….a bell that was well dented from being rung before COVID ever happened.

We just are getting further away from facts due to this bullshit.
 
MarkOU said:
Allan Savory. He is an ecologist.
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No doubt. I had to preface that I didn’t know who he was, I didn’t read up on him first. He came across very credible in that video, but that’s what narratives do these days too, mock up credibility to advance a message. Just give me the message and let me decide.

He makes a point I’ve heard before. It’s an issue. Peer review is an essential part of good science. But, even essential parts can be over-applied.
 
Catlanta33 said:
More of the same bullshit. Just make general statements on behalf of all scientists agreeing and the people will believe anything.

But scientists believe that they can confidently say that the virus wasn't created by humans and the myth going around is nothing more than that, a myth.

cont'd

Narrator: So SARS-CoV-2's origin is no longer a mystery. But where and how it jumped in nature, well, that's a question many are still trying to answer.

How we know the COVID-19 coronavirus wasn't made in a lab
Click to expand...
It’s just been allowed to be too easy to advance baseless nonsense. The same media will bitch that people have lost faith in science…..naturally they are ALWAYS unwilling to admit their culpability.
 
Many of the guest doctors/scientists I've been listening to on PC since last year say similar things about the differences of academia and what's in the field. They call them desk jockey doctors - like Fauci.

The all have similar takes that the information from the field is much harder to make public than what is decided behind the desk. That's why I was posting articles from seemingly legit sources that were parroting desk jockey information.

There are just so many layers with something like covid and how quickly what was hijacked was hijacked for reasons other than finding the truth.

We seem to have a disconnect with what is discovered after the desk jockeys make decisions. It's aided by disingenuous MSM, doctors/scientists, politicians and those funding research. Not all of them but many are looking suspect rather than being viewed as truth-seekers.
 
Catlanta33 said:
How do you get the truth when the ones assigned to deliver it won't even ask the question?

March 18, 2020 03:57 PM

COVID-19 not man-made, comparative genomic study finds​


"They conclude that the virus is the product of natural evolution, ending any speculation about deliberate genetic engineering," Josie Golding, an epidemic preparedness and response program officer at the Wellcome Trust, who was not involved in the study, said in a statement, calling the results "crucially important to bring an evidence-based view to the rumors that have been circulating about the origins of the virus (SARS-CoV-2) causing COVID-19."

COVID-19 not man-made, comparative genomic study finds

So where's all that evidence of the zoonotic origins of covid I've heard so much about?
Click to expand...
Or, maybe more pointedly, how does proving that the virus comes from nature (of course it does) also immediately discredit that it escaped from a lab?

These labs aren’t creating something artificial like Vx. They are studying pathogens…..that come….from nature.
 
I've posed the question before that if the virus starts naturally but is genetically modified later, is it still natural?
 
Orlando_Eagles said:
It’s just been allowed to be too easy to advance baseless nonsense. The same media will bitch that people have lost faith in science…..naturally they are ALWAYS unwilling to admit their culpability.
Click to expand...
Well, the state of politics in media and the polarization and speed of the media cycle preclude meaningful conversation. We're in the situation now where the possibility of criminalizing doubt in anthropogenic climate or improper transgender-associated pronoun use is seriously considered. Censorship, something long considered taboo for the field of journalism, was openly employed to prevent the spread of factual information related to the son of a presidential candidate- now president, who is accused of peddling influence to foreign governments and being massively compromised by ties to illicit drugs.

People don't know what to believe, as the sources they've traditionally trusted- the government and the media, have been exposed as lying to them. So trust in both institutions is at an all-time low. Whereas the obvious path to rebuilding that trust would seem to be reform and accountability, instead government and media instead have doubled down on telling yet more lies and insisting we all believe them. Hijacking science and corrupting its objective principles is neither new, nor surprising. Sadly.
 
Catlanta33 said:
I've posed the question before that if the virus starts naturally but is genetically modified later, is it still natural?
Click to expand...
No. When the English (colonists) gave blankets infected with smallpox to Native Americans in 1763, they knew the likely result. Nothing had been genetically modified, because such technology was 210 years in the future. All that is required for something to be 'unnatural' is human intervention. Someone who takes a bunch of poison found in the bark of naturally growing tree and poisons a community's water supply has directly applied that poison in a way Nature did not intend.

The Chinese were studying SARS viruses. What the focus of the research was, is somewhat unknown. But they had it at that lab and were indeed monkeying with its genetic code for purposes of experimentation. To claim as an utter impossibility that it escaped the lab- when that is the ONLY evidence available, and that instead it comes from a theorized bat/pangolin/seafood wet market source, is craziness. Finding manmade genetic markers on the virus found to be infecting people, is just a nail in the coffin of the market theory.
 
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