More Michigan Cheating

MAIZEandBLUE09 said:
He wasn't. This was sent to his lawyer. Tom Mars is Harbaugh's lawyer.
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So why would the NCAA state he is uncooperative FOR NOT TURNING OVER relevant messages and phone records????
 
ralphiewvu said:
So why would the NCAA state he is uncooperative FOR NOT TURNING OVER relevant messages and phone records????
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Because they gave him 24 hours and hit him with that after the 24 hours. After that 24 hour period lapsed, over the period of the next few weeks they did in fact go through and provide the NCAA the relevant emails and communications.
 
fordman84 said:
A leak is not the official notice.
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Sure. It isn't the official notice. But ESPN got the draft and you don't think the draft would include something as major as breaking a level 1 violation 58 times?

The things they list are all petty, causational infractions. Deleting and then recovering/turning in texts. Not providing emails in a specific time frame, Stallions quitting and not talking to the NCAA investigators (who as a private individual no longer associated with the sport had no legal duty to do so). And of course, the "multiple offenders" one for the institution after the cheeseburger incident; which is it's own BS nonsense.

The core of this case is over in person scouting, and in person scouting was barely listed at all in the article.
 
pete thamel said he thinks sherrone gets a 6 game suspension fwiw
 
MAIZEandBLUE09 said:
Sure. It isn't the official notice. But ESPN got the draft and you don't think the draft would include something as major as breaking a level 1 violation 58 times?

The things they list are all petty, causational infractions. Deleting and then recovering/turning in texts. Not providing emails in a specific time frame, Stallions quitting and not talking to the NCAA investigators (who as a private individual no longer associated with the sport had no legal duty to do so). And of course, the "multiple offenders" one for the institution after the cheeseburger incident; which is it's own BS nonsense.

The core of this case is over in person scouting, and in person scouting was barely listed at all in the article.
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ESPN got something they claim is the draft. You have done everything you can from day 1 to convince others this is a big bag of nothing and you have been wrong about literally every single thing you have said. Way to stick to your guns and bat 1.000 on looking like a dumbass.
 
fordman84 said:
ESPN got something they claim is the draft. You have done everything you can from day 1 to convince others this is a big bag of nothing and you have been wrong about literally every single thing you have said. Way to stick to your guns and bat 1.000 on looking like a dumbass.
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But I haven't been wrong; that's the point. If this draft is accurate and not void of the most major aspect of the story, I was entirely correct that these incidents of in-person scouting were at most secondary violations. And the worst part of this case will come down to repeat offender status, not the actual "crime" of in person scouting.
 
MAIZEandBLUE09 said:
Because they gave him 24 hours and hit him with that after the 24 hours. After that 24 hour period lapsed, over the period of the next few weeks they did in fact go through and provide the NCAA the relevant emails and communications.
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JFC dude, They wouldn’t have called it: FOR NOT TURNING OVER relevant messages and phone records.

They didn’t provide NCAA relevant emails, you know how I know???? Because it’s still in the draft saying such.

You continue to lie
 
MAIZEandBLUE09 said:
But I haven't been wrong; that's the point. If this draft is accurate and not void of the most major aspect of the story, I was entirely correct that these incidents of in-person scouting were at most secondary violations. And the worst part of this case will come down to repeat offender status, not the actual "crime" of in person scouting.
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Wrong, you started by saying sign stealing was legal. Now you claim you said they were just "secondary violations".
 
fordman84 said:
Wrong, you started by saying sign stealing was legal. Now you claim you said they were just "secondary violations".
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Sign stealing is legal. The real question is how the NCAA views 3rd party in person scouting. Clearly they point it out so it's likely they'll find an issue with it, even if it may not directly in violation of the language used in the rulebook. But some were suggesting this was a major violation; and I didn't think it was and I don't think it is now (if they even rule that way). Stallions being confirmed on the sideline of the CMU game is a direct violation of the rule; but even that doesn't seem to be pointed out as a major violation. It's the insubordination of the NCAA that gets called out the most.
 
fordman84 said:
You were wrong at this point, so ignoring the rest. Sign stealing is not legal if you break to rules to steal them. Full stop.
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Working out and lifting weights is legal and everyone does it, but doing it with steroids is not legal. It's what I pointed out yesterday, which he of course completely brushed off.
 
MAIZEandBLUE09 said:
Sign stealing is legal. The real question is how the NCAA views 3rd party in person scouting. Clearly they point it out so it's likely they'll find an issue with it, even if it may not directly in violation of the language used in the rulebook. But some were suggesting this was a major violation; and I didn't think it was and I don't think it is now (if they even rule that way). Stallions being confirmed on the sideline of the CMU game is a direct violation of the rule; but even that doesn't seem to be pointed out as a major violation. It's the insubordination of the NCAA that gets called out the most.
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Again, you are being disingenuous - surprise! Everyone knows that stealing signs during a game, looking at film, and even talking to people you know who have played a team is legal. We know for an absolute fact you can't do what Stalions did, and he did it alot. It's not even arguable, even though you will argue it. You will get some penalty for that.

What is arguable is whether your coaches knew about it. Nothing indicates they did, even though commonsense says they obviously did. Truthfully, they look more stupid that they didn't know than they were involved - but they have chosen to look stupid, not culpable. But, because no one cooperated and there is no subpoena power, that likely won't every be proven. According to reports, the deleted texts aren't proof that Moore knew.

You seem to have no understanding of what is a major violation. Level 1 violations are the top level violation, and they are bad. You have a bunch of them. Stalion on the sideline is a huge one, but that will fall more on CMU, not UM, LOL.

You are very fortunate that the NCAA has decided to no longer do things that penalize players who weren't on the team when the violation took place. That likely saves you from getting a post-season ban because this won't get resolved for a year or two. So here is what I think happens:

- A big fine - $5-$10 million
- CMU gets hammered for allowing him to be on the sideline in disguise.
- All your coaches who were directly involved will get show-cause penalties, but they don't care because they have moved to the pros.
- Moore will get a suspension for deleting texts, but by then, he likely won't be your coach.
- I don't think they will vacate your NC, but they should. It's tainted.
My wild card: I do think you will have to vacate a lot of games—all of 2023. Kentucky didn't do nearly as bad things as you did, but they had to vacate their entire 2022 season.
 
WhosYourDawggy said:
Again, you are being disingenuous - surprise! Everyone knows that stealing signs during a game, looking at film, and even talking to people you know who have played a team is legal. We know for an absolute fact you can't do what Stalions did, and he did it alot. It's not even arguable, even though you will argue it. You will get some penalty for that.

What is arguable is whether your coaches knew about it. Nothing indicates they did, even though commonsense says they obviously did. Truthfully, they look more stupid that they didn't know than they were involved - but they have chosen to look stupid, not culpable. But, because no one cooperated and there is no subpoena power, that likely won't every be proven. According to reports, the deleted texts aren't proof that Moore knew.

You seem to have no understanding of what is a major violation. Level 1 violations are the top level violation, and they are bad. You have a bunch of them. Stalion on the sideline is a huge one, but that will fall more on CMU, not UM, LOL.

You are very fortunate that the NCAA has decided to no longer do things that penalize players who weren't on the team when the violation took place. That likely saves you from getting a post-season ban because this won't get resolved for a year or two. So here is what I think happens:

- A big fine - $5-$10 million
- CMU gets hammered for allowing him to be on the sideline in disguise.
- All your coaches who were directly involved will get show-cause penalties, but they don't care because they have moved to the pros.
- Moore will get a suspension for deleting texts, but by then, he likely won't be your coach.
- I don't think they will vacate your NC, but they should. It's tainted.
My wild card: I do think you will have to vacate a lot of games—all of 2023. Kentucky didn't do nearly as bad things as you did, but they had to vacate their entire 2022 season.
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The NCAA has never vacated wins where there weren't ineligible players involved. Kentucky's punishment, while certainly outdated with the times, was a direct result of playing ineligible players. And at the time, what Kentucky (the primary offense) was a series of level 1 NCAA violations. Michigan did not play ineligible players and if my prediction based on this article is accurate, Michigan's primary offense of in-person scouting, is not a level 1 NCAA violation.

Again, you're still arguing from a stance that in-person scouting is a level 1 NCAA violation. Yes, we know hiding things from the NCAA, not cooperating with investigations and all the other things listed are -- but the actual crime, in person scouting, probably isn't. The other crimes are individual crimes that likely, and historically, impact the individual (not the school or team) who committed them.

So what you're suggesting is that Michigan gets wins vacated because of what is likely a secondary NCAA violation on information gathering. One that by their own admission in years prior offered only "minimal competitive advantage".

And lastly, lol at tainted title. Michigan had this released in october. Every single ranked team on our schedule had significant time to change things around except arguably Michigan State. Meanwhile, we were handicapped and played some of our hardest games without a head coach, with the NCAA snooping around every aspect of our player's and coaches existence and with Pete Thamel dropping new leaks every week. If anything, Michigan was at a far more significant disadvantage during that time than any other team who had to adjust their signals. Which is why the NCAA president came out and confirmed that Michigan won fair and square -- which was the NCAA's intent by releasing that information when they did, so there would be no question.
 
MAIZEandBLUE09 said:
The NCAA has never vacated wins where there weren't ineligible players involved. Kentucky's punishment, while certainly outdated with the times, was a direct result of playing ineligible players. And at the time, what Kentucky (the primary offense) was a series of level 1 NCAA violations. Michigan did not play ineligible players and if my prediction based on this article is accurate, Michigan's primary offense of in-person scouting, is not a level 1 NCAA violation.

Again, you're still arguing from a stance that in-person scouting is a level 1 NCAA violation. Yes, we know hiding things from the NCAA, not cooperating with investigations and all the other things listed are -- but the actual crime, in person scouting, probably isn't. The other crimes are individual crimes that likely, and historically, impact the individual (not the school or team) who committed them.

So what you're suggesting is that Michigan gets wins vacated because of what is likely a secondary NCAA violation on information gathering. One that by their own admission in years prior offered only "minimal competitive advantage".

And lastly, lol at tainted title. Michigan had this released in october. Every single ranked team on our schedule had significant time to change things around except arguably Michigan State. Meanwhile, we were handicapped and played some of our hardest games without a head coach, with the NCAA snooping around every aspect of our player's and coaches existence and with Pete Thamel dropping new leaks every week. If anything, Michigan was at a far more significant disadvantage during that time than any other team who had to adjust their signals. Which is why the NCAA president came out and confirmed that Michigan won fair and square -- which was the NCAA's intent by releasing that information when they did, so there would be no question.
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Only UM fans will not see that as a tainted title. You cheated. You know it. We know it. Everyone knows it. Hell, your HC missed 6 games for violations and still had a ton pending when he and most of your coaches fled. It will forever carry an asterisk to anyone who follows college football other than UM fans. Congrats.
 
WhosYourDawggy said:
Only UM fans will not see that as a tainted title. You cheated. You know it. We know it. Everyone knows it. Hell, your HC missed 6 games for violations and still had a ton pending when he and most of your coaches fled. It will forever carry an asterisk to anyone who follows college football other than UM fans. Congrats.
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UM and Astros fans can create a support group.
 
WhosYourDawggy said:
Only UM fans will not see that as a tainted title. You cheated. You know it. We know it. Everyone knows it. Hell, your HC missed 6 games for violations and still had a ton pending when he and most of your coaches fled. It will forever carry an asterisk to anyone who follows college football other than UM fans. Congrats.
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You mean....and the NCAA president?

And like, most in the media?

The only people who view it as tainted are the ones who hate UM. I'm not sure you would have cared about this at all had we not had our prior back and forths on here.

Michigan's title was won after the allegations were public. This isa different conversation if it came out post season. Unless you think Michigan needed sign stealing to beat Hawaii, this is a nonsense point made in bath faith.
 
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