New Zealand science vs wokeism

[DraftNerd]

I don't either, I don't know the details surrounding his firing

I’ll put my knee jerk outrage away…..good talk through.

 

[Mofo]

It's mythology, not religion. They aren't telling you to worship anything and they aren't forcing anything on you.

But it shouldn't be tied to a science class.

Again, this is exactly what Christian and other groups tried to do in U.S. public schools. Most Americans were fine with the teaching of religion and mythology in world history classes or philosophy classes.

At the time, proponents claimed that nothing was being "forced on" students too, and said it was just a harmless "alternative theory". Firing someone for disagreeing publicly with this kind of notion is confusing, and looks like it's wokeist cancellation.

 

[Bender]

Also worth noting that back in the day, scientists thought everything revolved around the Earth. And was flat.

So, science isn't always 100% accurate, but I just thought it was an interesting read and how being 'woke' is conflating science and mythology.

Creationism and Maori culture can be taught with the proper context, just as science should be taught with what mistakes have occurred in the past.

let's not be too hasty, i've seen some youtube videos.

 

[DraftNerd]

Again, this is exactly what Christian and other groups tried to do in U.S. public schools. Most Americans were fine with the teaching of religion and mythology in world history classes or philosophy classes.

At the time, proponents claimed that nothing was being "forced on" students too, and said it was just a harmless "alternative theory". Firing someone for disagreeing publicly with this kind of notion is confusing, and looks like it's wokeist cancellation.

There is us again. That’s the damn thing. Not long ago I was fine with wokeness as a general principle. Bring on more fairness and equity.

But, it’s been hijacked and misapplied and already is ruined as a term and concept.

@ill and I came to a good point….the article says one professor is at danger of being expelled over him signing the letter….but I’m not sure if that’s exactly the case, or if it was just said that way.

He shouldn’t face anything punitive, nor should anyone that signed it if they were strictly on the point of civilly calling it out….because they are right. This is NOT science.

If they were actually respectful in voicing their opinions and any are let go it just feeds the “thought police” fears ramping up all around us.

 

[DraftNerd]

let's not be too hasty, i've seen some youtube videos.

Yeah, but were you drunk when you watched them?

 

[Mofo]

There is us again. That’s the damn thing. Not long ago I was fine with wokeness as a general principle. Bring on more fairness and equity.

But, it’s been hijacked and misapplied and already is ruined as a term and concept.

@ill and I came to a good point….the article says one professor is at danger of being expelled over him signing the letter….but I’m not sure if that’s exactly the case, or if it was just said that way.

He shouldn’t face anything punitive, nor should anyone that signed it if they were strictly on the point of civilly calling it out….because they are right. This is NOT science.

If they were actually respectful in voicing their opinions and any are let go it just feeds the “thought police” fears ramping up all around us.

Science is a frequent target, because it presents itself as intractable with its need for evidence and reproducibility. It seems like fairness to claim that diversity of opinion should override any singular view.

You're right though. I'd appreciate someone digging deeper and writing a halfway decent article. Too many times, questions are left unasked and the result is some clickbait-y piece of garbage that no qualified editor would let go to publication. It could be that this scientist said some bigoted things outside an official capacity and his organization is simply imposing discipline. And if it is the case that some weirdo BLM-type crusader is looking for "equity" in science education, then let's hear how far the horror story goes.

 

[ill]

Again, this is exactly what Christian and other groups tried to do in U.S. public schools. Most Americans were fine with the teaching of religion and mythology in world history classes or philosophy classes.

At the time, proponents claimed that nothing was being "forced on" students too, and said it was just a harmless "alternative theory". Firing someone for disagreeing publicly with this kind of notion is confusing, and looks like it's wokeist cancellation.

So isn't the "woke" side the ones who don't want it taught?

That's how it would be in the US of right? Those for separating religion and school are the leftists or woke crowd, right?

 

[DraftNerd]

So isn't the "woke" side the ones who don't want it taught?

That's how it would be in the US of right? Those for separating religion and school are the leftists or woke crowd, right?

Yes, but no.

This would make more sense if we were speaking of Native American mythology being taught in Oklahoma equal to science so the NA kids aren’t being left behind.

It just makes no sense how that’s going to help prepare those kids for trying to make a better life in this world.

Comparing it directly to science vs creationism like it is in this country can make it confusing.

 

[DraftNerd]

Science is a frequent target, because it presents itself as intractable with its need for evidence and reproducibility. It seems like fairness to claim that diversity of opinion should override any singular view.

You're right though. I'd appreciate someone digging deeper and writing a halfway decent article. Too many times, questions are left unasked and the result is some clickbait-y piece of garbage that no qualified editor would let go to publication. It could be that this scientist said some bigoted things outside an official capacity and his organization is simply imposing discipline. And if it is the case that some weirdo BLM-type crusader is looking for "equity" in science education, then let's hear how far the horror story goes.

I don’t know if “intractable” is the most apt term to use. Like @Sparhawk said….go back far enough and science told us that the world was the flat center of the universe. Science has amended as it has found empirical answers otherwise. From that point it’s rigid. Once we know it we know it. It’s quantifiable and fact.

Ancient mythology (or even mythology still taught) is important to culture. It should be taught as a social science. Nothing else begins to make sense.

 

[Mofo]

So isn't the "woke" side the ones who don't want it taught?

That's how it would be in the US of right? Those for separating religion and school are the leftists or woke crowd, right?

It's a weird confluence of idiocy. Sort of like when leftists seek to protect Muslims from ridicule or regulation, even though they brutalize non-believers and aren't exactly the biggest believers in feminism or homosexuality.

@Sickness had a reposted tweet that illustrated this doublethink nicely- In order to preserve Harvey Milk's status as a heroic martyr, his sexual preference was retconned so that he didn't have to be a pedophile anymore; a completely new label was invented to be inclusive of him, since the age of "men" he lusted for only extended down to 15.

Like @Orlando_Eagles, wokeness is fine in principle. Let's wake up about lingering racism in society, reform bad cops out of the system, etc. But in practice, it's like a virus, and spreads in areas that are frankly insane. The examples are manifest: Science isn't science anymore, unless it's inclusive of aboriginal mythology. Math is racist because if some minorities don't perform as well, the standard should only be lowered for them. Jussie Smollett is innocent because... <insert excuse here>.

I don’t know if “intractable” is the most apt term to use. Like @Sparhawk said….go back far enough and science told us that the world was the flat center of the universe. Science has amended as it has found empirical answers otherwise. From that point it’s rigid. Once we know it we know it. It’s quantifiable and fact.

Ancient mythology (or even mythology still taught) is important to culture. It should be taught as a social science. Nothing else begins to make sense.

Scientific method is the purest form of study we have available. It's a fairly rigid guideline for how to discover fact. Humans are curious, but also easily misled if there's a ready-made answer to be had.

I agree that mythology is important. But to the extent that it belongs alongside true science like biology, chemistry, physics, I disagree. Humans impart an artificiality to their own history and culture through direct action. Thus, social science is not true science. Anyone who says otherwise is some kind of zealot.

 

[DraftNerd]

It's a weird confluence of idiocy. Sort of like when leftists seek to protect Muslims from ridicule or regulation, even though they brutalize non-believers and aren't exactly the biggest believers in feminism or homosexuality.

@Sickness had a reposted tweet that illustrated this doublethink nicely- In order to preserve Harvey Milk's status as a heroic martyr, his sexual preference was retconned so that he didn't have to be a pedophile anymore; a completely new label was invented to be inclusive of him, since the age of "men" he lusted for only extended down to 15.

Like @Orlando_Eagles, wokeness is fine in principle. Let's wake up about lingering racism in society, reform bad cops out of the system, etc. But in practice, it's like a virus, and spreads in areas that are frankly insane. The examples are manifest: Science isn't science anymore, unless it's inclusive of aboriginal mythology. Math is racist because if some minorities don't perform as well, the standard should only be lowered for them. Jussie Smollett is innocent because... <insert excuse here>.


Scientific method is the purest form of study we have available. It's a fairly rigid guideline for how to discover fact. Humans are curious, but also easily misled if there's a ready-made answer to be had.

I agree that mythology is important. But to the extent that it belongs alongside true science like biology, chemistry, physics, I disagree. Humans impart an artificiality to their own history and culture through direct action. Thus, social science is not true science. Anyone who says otherwise is some kind of zealot.

To be clear….I think “woke” can be a great thing for society. It’s been weaponized like a virus currently. You can’t bash, shame and punish people to it. That term (woke) is over. But the principle….it can be effective if reigned in a good bit.

 

[Mofo]

To be clear….I think “woke” can be a great thing for society. It’s been weaponized like a virus currently. You can’t bash, shame and punish people to it. That term (woke) is over. But the principle….it can be effective if reigned in a good bit.

It was over the second it became politicized. BLM has been infected multiple times with the idea that it could and should become a political movement. It went from fighting against police brutality to decrying capitalism and having an opinion on Israel.

"Woke" became a word of derision because the people who developed it turned it into a crass, political money play. Watching progressives try to claim that Critical Race Theory doesn't exist in schools, for example, is among the last vestiges of something that could've been transformative.

I think the ship has probably sailed on the whole thing. It took a really, really obvious bit of police brutality to reinvigorate BLM and wokeism. Now that there's no Trump to use as a villain for the next 3+ years, we'll instead see the decline of the movements, as the leaders' corruption is exposed or the causes become subsumed by yet more politicking.

 

[Sparhawk]

I don’t know if “intractable” is the most apt term to use. Like @Sparhawk said….go back far enough and science told us that the world was the flat center of the universe. Science has amended as it has found empirical answers otherwise. From that point it’s rigid. Once we know it we know it. It’s quantifiable and fact.

Ancient mythology (or even mythology still taught) is important to culture. It should be taught as a social science. Nothing else begins to make sense.

“… Science is constantly proved all the time. You see, if we take something like any fiction, any holy book… and destroyed it, in a thousand years’ time, that wouldn’t come back just as it was. Whereas if we took every science book, and every fact, and destroyed them all, in a thousand years they’d all be back, because all the same tests would [produce] the same result.”​

I'd say the second part is probably 99% true, as there might be one or two things that change based on new technology/new understanding of how things work.

 

[DraftNerd]

“… Science is constantly proved all the time. You see, if we take something like any fiction, any holy book… and destroyed it, in a thousand years’ time, that wouldn’t come back just as it was. Whereas if we took every science book, and every fact, and destroyed them all, in a thousand years they’d all be back, because all the same tests would [produce] the same result.”​

I'd say the second part is probably 99% true, as there might be one or two things that change based on new technology/new understanding of how things work.

I’ve often attributed science learning new things “and changing their minds” (correcting with new data) to be what a lot of people gripe about.

There are probably many reasons….but one that always stuck in my head…..people of any religion have been told for ever that science is a threat to the religion. Many take that as science BEING a religion. And so faith must be ascribed. And when faith is in place it doesn’t do well to change the story.

Faith is science (for lack of a better word) requires a different approach than religion, because they will be changed when the data and facts support it. It doesn’t require blind faith, hence it’s credibility shouldn’t be impugned when better answers come out.

That’s maybe not the only example, but it’s one I think about a lot. And it’s not an attack on religion. Best science teacher I ever had was at a Christian private school. For him science described how God works. And I like that. To him the Bible was explaining things the best we could at the time, and science doesn’t negate God, but bring glory in better understanding of how he works.