Religion vs The Church

Kburjr said:
I totally understand that. I may have anarcho-capitalist beliefs but I don't belong to the Mises Institute
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I didn't mean to imply you needed help on the meanings of 'Church'. I just wanted folks to be aware of the nuances when they read/contribute.
 
Kburjr said:
A church is an organization that uses religion to indoctrinate and control the followers.
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Do you think the doctrine of 'The Priesthood of All Believers', common in protestant denominations, is helpful at preventing radical indoctrination and control?
 
Kburjr said:
Religion, to me, is a branch of philosophy, usually based upon the teachings of a master/deity

A church is an organization that uses religion to indoctrinate and control the followers.


Discuss
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religion was created to indoctrinate and control people, the church is just an arm of that tree.
 
Kburjr said:
I have no argument about why it was created but it has evolved, IMO
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i guess i have to ask what were you specifically trying to differentiate between when you said religion and church? Church to my knowledge strictly refers to Christianity. Man created God to make sense of what they don't understand. Religion church, outside of giving people power over people and setting rules also served the purpose of providing people with a sense of community. It wasn't about any of the teachings more so than providing a social gathering. End of the day, it's still used to control people on what they should believe is right and moral, though even then, it's argued, hence so many sects.
 
Bender said:
i guess i have to ask what were you specifically trying to differentiate between when you said religion and church? Church to my knowledge strictly refers to Christianity. Man created God to make sense of what they don't understand. Religion church, outside of giving people power over people and setting rules also served the purpose of providing people with a sense of community. It wasn't about any of the teachings more so than providing a social gathering. End of the day, it's still used to control people on what they should believe is right and moral, though even then, it's argued, hence so many sects.
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I believe that all individuals have a different metaphysical experience, in Christianity a personal relationship with God. The c(C)hurch is the collective manifestation
 
Kburjr said:
Religion, to me, is a branch of philosophy, usually based upon the teachings of a master/deity

A church is an organization that uses religion to indoctrinate and control the followers.


Discuss
Click to expand...
I see religion and church as synonymous. Things get clear when you go with God vs. religion. Does God exist and does God have a religion? There no question that religion was and is used to control people. A good question is controlling people bad? Traffic Lights control people, are Traffic Lights bad? Gravity controls people is gravity bad? The government controls people is the government bad? Religion controls people is religion bad?

You appear to be a true Laissez Faire person so you are probably opposed to any kind of controls that are not based in Physics. I don't necessarily agree with that. I think some traffic lights, government, and some religion is good ... too much however, becomes annoying and people tend to rebel. I believe that 100% God exists, and I don't believe that atheists exist. I believe that people who say they are atheist act are just unable to quantify their belief system. God does not equal religion, but Physics is a subset of God. God created the Physical Universe and all the Laws of Physics are actually Law of God. That said, I sent my kids to a parochial school and I feel they are better and more successful because of it. It all in how you looks at things I guess, but it is good to explore and challenge your beliefs.
 
Kburjr said:
If you are willing, let's continue. I don't know the Catholic Church at all.

Question: Excommunication seems to be a church function. Correct? Or is it a question of faith?
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It can be either.

Some choose to excummicate themselves because they feel out of grace and want time to correct their defect.

It can be an official function most times done in confidence. For this to be public it would take some very public act. You could go up to 1,000 Catholics and ask them if they know of someone that had been excummicated by the Church and I would be extremely shocked if any of them did.
 
Kburjr said:
Religion, to me, is a branch of philosophy, usually based upon the teachings of a master/deity

A church is an organization that uses religion to indoctrinate and control the followers.


Discuss
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Some religions would be loosely based in philosophy, but not many IMO. Mostly Eastern religions.

Most religions, by definition, are indoctrinating organizations. OUR way is THE way so everyone should know and be what we are. Religions directing their followers to do "things" has been a fairly dark mark on the species as a whole if we're being truthful.

Just more mechanisms of driving people apart in the grand scheme of things.

Its existence is glaring proof of how wholly ignorant and indignant we really are. Fancy monkeys indeed.
 
Voltaire said:
I see religion and church as synonymous. Things get clear when you go with God vs. religion. Does God exist and does God have a religion? There no question that religion was and is used to control people. A good question is controlling people bad? Traffic Lights control people, are Traffic Lights bad? Gravity controls people is gravity bad? The government controls people is the government bad? Religion controls people is religion bad?

You appear to be a true Laissez Faire person so you are probably opposed to any kind of controls that are not based in Physics. I don't necessarily agree with that. I think some traffic lights, government, and some religion is good ... too much however, becomes annoying and people tend to rebel. I believe that 100% God exists, and I don't believe that atheists exist. I believe that people who say they are atheist act are just unable to quantify their belief system. God does not equal religion, but Physics is a subset of God. God created the Physical Universe and all the Laws of Physics are actually Law of God. That said, I sent my kids to a parochial school and I feel they are better and more successful because of it. It all in how you looks at things I guess, but it is good to explore and challenge your beliefs.
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I certainly do believe that no one has an inherent right to control another, whether government nor religion. Traffic lights are a function of government. Government can be given the permission to set rules but it does not have the right.
 
Kburjr said:
I certainly do believe that no one has an inherent right to control another, whether government nor religion. Traffic lights are a function of government. Government can be given the permission to set rules but it does not have the right.
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I do like and respect the way you worded that
 
Batman said:
I think it is helpful for believers to see the Church from two perspectives.

The first is The Church(upper case) as ordained by God:
Matt 16:18-20 "And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it."
This is a spiritual Church. According to Jesus, it is His Church. It resides in the spirit of all believers. It is eternal according to Scripture. In this Church there are no denominations.

The second is churches(lower case). These are worldly institutions. There is no doubt that 'churches' created and maintained by man are often manipulative, greedy and corrupt. They do much good but they also do much evil. They often do what they must to survive in the politics of the day. They are imperfect and will someday cease to exist(like all things made by man).

Christians could say, "We are The Church, and we go to church".

Of course, this is all silly to non-believers.
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you know when looking at religion. This might be the 1st I have seen 2 different views.
I commend you on that.
When I was young & asking questions on religion I was taught two things I kept.
One. If you are not allowed to question your religion. You are in a Cult!
2nd one kinda pertains to your post.
I was told you dont have to have a building to be a church.
Anywhere you preached was a church of god.
So if you were homeless preaching around a campfire, that would be god's Church.
That I could have bought into, if I were religious.

The other is exactly what I think of religion. You go to these big beautiful buildings where they preach to you what you have to think not to be in sin & is all about control, Money & power.
 
Schmoopy1000 said:
you know when looking at religion. This might be the 1st I have seen 2 different views.
I commend you on that.
When I was young & asking questions on religion I was taught two things I kept.
One. If you are not allowed to question your religion. You are in a Cult!
2nd one kinda pertains to your post.
I was told you dont have to have a building to be a church.
Anywhere you preached was a church of god.
So if you were homeless preaching around a campfire, that would be god's Church.
That I could have bought into, if I were religious.

The other is exactly what I think of religion. You go to these big beautiful buildings where they preach to you what you have to think not to be in sin & is all about control, Money & power.
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Well said.
I’ve gone back and forth on religion and a lot of these themes being discussed.

I was raised in a Methodist home. We were a part of the church for years. It’s was great community. It was also where they laid the seeds in the young (I’m not saying that’s wrong). We stopped being a regular part of the Church, but thanks to my rebellious teenage years I ended up finishing my last three years of high school in a Methodist private school.

On the plus....I was given a more structured and controlled environment to buckle down and get my schooling done. On the negative....I found many of the teachings that I accepted without question as a child were things I had lots of questions on as a teen.

While there was room to discuss offered, it was really only room with the same outcome....they were right.

Christianity might have reformed greatly over the last 500 years or so....but much of the rigidity does remain. That rigidity was always based in control. Without the power of the message there is no control over people.

I am spiritual, but not outwardly religious. The reason for this is that religion has continued to be the message of true spirituality bastardized by the weakness of man.
 
Which person is a Christian:

believes in god. Goes to church. Shares their faith with others. i.e., Worships Christ

feeds the hungry, heals the sick, welcomes the stranger. i.e., follows Jesus’s teachings
 
As a youth, I believed what I was told.

Then you grow and see things that simply don't seem right. Like having a handicapped child as I do, "God has a plan for him". I haven't seen it.

So I fall back to olden days, when everything was a mystical mystery.

Has to be some reason for things?

So we came up with god.
 
Kburjr said:
Religion, to me, is a branch of philosophy, usually based upon the teachings of a master/deity

A church is an organization that uses religion to indoctrinate and control the followers.


Discuss
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This is exactly right.

How the fuck did I miss this one.

And according to this, I am a religious man, but not a church go'er.
 
Neighbordude said:
Which person is a Christian:

believes in god. Goes to church. Shares their faith with others. i.e., Worships Christ

feeds the hungry, heals the sick, welcomes the stranger. i.e., follows Jesus’s teachings
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The person who does both is a Christian. A person who does only half of that is only half of a Christian.

One important distinction about "feeds the hungry, heals the sick, welcomes the stranger"... it's not applicable if you pay someone else to do it for you - which includes the government.
 
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