Today, August 2 In History

HammerDown said:
I'd argue that's an extremely simplistic viewpoint. They had the European war won and then hesitated at the Channel. Germany would have still won easily in 1940/41 if Hitler wasn't bent on invading Russia.

I agree with Shirer's bottom line on why Germany lost. You can say that the invasion of Russia was the dagger but Shirer said it all boiled down to this fact: Churchill was constrained by his generals and Hitler was not.

Let the Jews fight for you, honor the pact with Russia and let the generals wage war and Germany wins easily.
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You're also ignoring that Stalin had westward expansion as well.

It's not as simple as don't commit genocide or go after Russia either
 
PnkPanther said:
You're also ignoring that Stalin had westward expansion as well.

It's not as simple as don't commit genocide or go after Russia either
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Right, which is why with very few exceptions, it's impossible to say that one factor decided the outcome of the war.

Stalin isn't as hated as Hitler because he "won." To the victor go the spoils. Stalin and Hirohito and Chiang Kai Shek were monsters just like Hitler but they didn't have the balls nor circumstances to do what they wanted to do.
 
Hitler's fuck ups came due to him being a narcissist. Before he gained a certain amount of power. His Narcissism worked for him. Once he gained that certain amount of power. It doomed him. Narcissist arent known for their patience. Everyone knows you shouldnt fight a war on two fronts. Hitler was like ahh I got this! He was advised about attacking deep into Russia during winter. Hitler is like Nah! I dont want to wait til after winter.
 
Schmoopy1000 said:
Hitler's fuck ups came due to him being a narcissist. Before he gained a certain amount of power. His Narcissism worked for him. Once he gained that certain amount of power. It doomed him. Narcissist arent known for their patience. Everyone knows you shouldnt fight a war on two fronts. Hitler was like ahh I got this! He was advised about attacking deep into Russia during winter. Hitler is like Nah! I dont want to wait til after winter.
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The initial successes ruined him. Everything he did worked phenomenally well so why stop?
 
HammerDown said:
I'd argue that's an extremely simplistic viewpoint. They had the European war won and then hesitated at the Channel. Germany would have still won easily in 1940/41 if Hitler wasn't bent on invading Russia.

I agree with Shirer's bottom line on why Germany lost. You can say that the invasion of Russia was the dagger but Shirer said it all boiled down to this fact: Churchill was constrained by his generals and Hitler was not.

Let the Jews fight for you, honor the pact with Russia and let the generals wage war and Germany wins easily.
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Axis and Allies tells me that the quickest route to victory for the Axis is to take Moscow early in the game.
 
HammerDown said:
Right, which is why with very few exceptions, it's impossible to say that one factor decided the outcome of the war.

Stalin isn't as hated as Hitler because he "won." To the victor go the spoils. Stalin and Hirohito and Chiang Kai Shek were monsters just like Hitler but they didn't have the balls nor circumstances to do what they wanted to do.
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I don't think history has Stalin going down as hero

It was an alliance out of convenience, US/UK didn't trust Stalin at all, but it was their best bet

And it's not like countries that Germany invaded were all fine and dandy with their new nazi overlords. Hitler probably could've gotten away with annexation of Austria and some surrounding territories as world didn't have a stomach for war, but once he pushed into czechs and france, UK was going to give up and Germany couldn't gain air or naval superiority needed to invade the UK

On the 180 side of that, just before the invasion of the France by germany there was a large road block. Had France and UK assemebled their air force, they could've defeated the force right then and there

Or when they were first in going east, Germans left west relatively undefended and French army greatly outnumbered the Germans. And while France did invade Germany with little resistance, the French general lost his nerve and moved to a defensive position which of course teh germans just circumvented later on


you can play a lot of "what if's" but I really struggle to see a scenario where Germany wins due, they didn't have the resources to take on US, UK, and USSR


Germany didn't have enough oil and raw materials. Their manufacturing process was slower and behind rivals. Their equipment was overly complicated, they'd have to send planes/tanks by train back to Germany to get fixed, allies could often fix in the field as they had mass produced vehicles with interchangeable parts. Germans kept updating and over engineering their equipment


And the Nazi's wouldn't be the Nazi's if they didn't hate the jews and the bolshoveks, it was big part of their ethos
 
RoyMunson said:
Axis and Allies tells me that the quickest route to victory for the Axis is to take Moscow early in the game.
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It's pretty hard for the Axis to win if you play with people who know what they're doing, but for Axis to have a realistic chance Japan and Germany need to squeeze Russia and hope that USA player is incompetent
 
PnkPanther said:
you can play a lot of "what if's" but I really struggle to see a scenario where Germany wins due, they didn't have the resources to take on US, UK, and USSR
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Yeah, there's a whole study on Neville Chamberlain's duplicity. In fact, I heard there's a book out now where the author makes the case that he is virtually entirely responsible for WW2.

But to the point above, I'm saying that the war was essentially won, at least politically, very early on. Hitler's rationale for going after the USSR was they had to have the grain and oil from Ukraine but as far as a European capitulation they almost had that. They halted due to weather and indecision about crossing the Channel and that was really the first fatal blunder in retrospect.

The sentiment in the US pre-Pearl Harbor was stay the hell out of it. Yes, Germany would never be able to invade or wage war on American soil due to distance but the same can be said of the US if Germany had wrapped up Europe.

I think it was much, much closer to being over than you're admitting. The first blitz campaigns were unstoppable and Europe was reeling. Hitler hesitated when he could have delivered the coup de grace.
 
HammerDown said:
On a scale not known since Alexander the Great. Hitler was totally convinced that "providence" had already determined that he'd carry out his intentions and deliver a pure race of man.
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He made the same mistake as Napoleon did, invading Russia in late June, two days apart.
 
PnkPanther said:
It's pretty hard for the Axis to win if you play with people who know what they're doing, but for Axis to have a realistic chance Japan and Germany need to squeeze Russia and hope that USA player is incompetent
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yeah, you gotta pounce early before USA can get setup and hope they make a few mistakes. I've won as both but never against a good Allies player... though I do have a picture of an unfinished game with my buddy that I'm pretty sure I'm ahead but we'll never finish. He'll forever call it my Snake Eyes game where I was just on fire with the dice.
 
HammerDown said:
You can call him every name in the book except idiot. What he accomplished was unparalleled in human history. He seized total power and came very close to pulling off world domination.
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The United States and the allies defeated two regimes who were seeking world domination. I'm pretty sure Hitler was going to lose no matter what.
 
PnkPanther said:
I don't think history has Stalin going down as hero
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...but he's not reviled like Hitler. Why? Because he didn't have the opportunities afforded him that Hitler did. He was just as much of an insane monster as Hitler but not nearly as talented.
 
douggie said:
The United States and the allies defeated two regimes who were seeking world domination. I'm pretty sure Hitler was going to lose no matter what.
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The point I'm making: Germany was inches from victory on the Eastern front. I'm not talking about the totality of what it evolved into after the invasion of the USSR and Japan dragging the US into it.

He blundered when he could have delivered the fatal blow that the generals were begging for.
 
HammerDown said:
The point I'm making: Germany was inches from victory on the Eastern front. I'm not talking about the totality of what it evolved into after the invasion of the USSR and Japan dragging the US into it.

He blundered when he could have delivered the fatal blow that the generals were begging for.
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He blundered so many times trying to micro-manage the war instead of trusting his generals. My God he had Erwin Rommel commit suicide.

There used to be a museum dedicated to Rommel in Germany. Where his remains are laid to rest. I think it's closed now. It was in Blaustein. I have a couple of friends who graduated from West Point who were stationed in Germany. They've toured Europe extensively.
 
HammerDown said:
Yeah, there's a whole study on Neville Chamberlain's duplicity. In fact, I heard there's a book out now where the author makes the case that he is virtually entirely responsible for WW2.

But to the point above, I'm saying that the war was essentially won, at least politically, very early on. Hitler's rationale for going after the USSR was they had to have the grain and oil from Ukraine but as far as a European capitulation they almost had that. They halted due to weather and indecision about crossing the Channel and that was really the first fatal blunder in retrospect.

The sentiment in the US pre-Pearl Harbor was stay the hell out of it. Yes, Germany would never be able to invade or wage war on American soil due to distance but the same can be said of the US if Germany had wrapped up Europe.

I think it was much, much closer to being over than you're admitting. The first blitz campaigns were unstoppable and Europe was reeling. Hitler hesitated when he could have delivered the coup de grace.
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Yes. This is where the Axis should have let sleeping dogs lie.
 
Very happy to have just ordered a new one from Max Hastings.

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Winston's War: Churchill, 1940-1945​


I just finished Inferno earlier this year. Sir Winston is one of my favorite all-time people.
 
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