What If JFK Wasn’t a Conspiracy

I haven't looked enough into to really form an opinion. I've never really been enamored with the Kennedy assassination. All I'm gonna add is that I do a lot of deer hunting, and I'm not taking a shot with tree obstruction, and 9 times out of 10 if the first shot misses, the second shot isn't gonna hit either, especially with a bolt action rifle.
 
broncosmitty said:
Okay.

Authorities also “found” a pristine bullet at the hospital.

Leaving evidence is sloppy. Again, it is not difficult to avoid leaving shell casings. Brass catchers had been available for decades.
Click to expand...

broncosmitty said:
Read my posts.
Click to expand...

ok… so you are saying that they had a well planned out conspiracy involving two shooters and one used “brass catchers” and one didn’t?
 
Last edited:
broncosmitty said:
Okay.

Authorities also “found” a pristine bullet at the hospital.

Leaving evidence is sloppy. Again, it is not difficult to avoid leaving shell casings. Brass catchers had been available for decades.
Click to expand...

ok… here’s the patent applications for brass catchers. You said they’ve been available for “decades”. I agree. According to all these patents they go back to 1984. Here’s the link…

Shell Catchers Patents and Patent Applications (Class 42/98) - Justia Patents Search

Search for Shell Catchers Patents and Patent Applications (Class 42/98) Filed with the USPTO
patents.justia.com patents.justia.com

Kennedy was shot 2 decades before that in 1963. Do you have anything to support that brass catchers were available to the general public in November of 1963?
 
Last edited:
Illustrious Potentate said:
I haven't looked enough into to really form an opinion. I've never really been enamored with the Kennedy assassination. All I'm gonna add is that I do a lot of deer hunting, and I'm not taking a shot with tree obstruction, and 9 times out of 10 if the first shot misses, the second shot isn't gonna hit either, especially with a bolt action rifle.
Click to expand...

appreciate your thoughts. FWIW I don’t think hunting a deer and this scenario are comparable but that’s just my opinion. Kennedy was in a car, on road going straight at about 11 mph when the second and third shots were taken. IMO that’s a completely different scenario then trying to hit a deer that is already alerted to your presence by a missed shot.
 
broncosmitty said:
You honestly believe a bullet could enter and exit bodies 7-8 times without getting smashed up?

The through and through of Jacks neck I understand, but lead on bone is another thing altogether. I can indent lead with my fingernail.
Click to expand...
I believe what I’ve read from the autopsy (Kennedy) and attending (Connelly) doctors, yes.

In Kennedy’s case there was no bone deflect or slow it much. They believe the force of the shot ( not the bullet) impacted his C-6, but that’s it. Connelly is almost the same except it did clip a rib taking some out and fracturing the rest. It’s a lot to go through (including Connellys wrist) but it’s been deemed plausible by doctors and ballistics experts.

What I never believed was that the bullet zig zagged between the two men. That’s been settled now with better technology.

I believe there were three shots. Oswald left three casings. His co workers one floor directly below him heard three shots, two casings hit the floor and two bolt action clicks. I believe it was timed out in Zapruder with the first shot missing (eventual victims looking over their shoulder, then hit, the JFK kill shot last). There just isn’t room for more than three shots in what people reported (majority reporting it was three) or for evidence of another shooter.
 
Orlando_Eagles said:
I believe what I’ve read from the autopsy (Kennedy) and attending (Connelly) doctors, yes.

In Kennedy’s case there was no bone deflect or slow it much. They believe the force of the shot ( not the bullet) impacted his C-6, but that’s it. Connelly is almost the same except it did clip a rib taking some out and fracturing the rest. It’s a lot to go through (including Connellys wrist) but it’s been deemed plausible by doctors and ballistics experts.

What I never believed was that the bullet zig zagged between the two men. That’s been settled now with better technology.

I believe there were three shots. Oswald left three casings. His co workers one floor directly below him heard three shots, two casings hit the floor and two bolt action clicks. I believe it was timed out in Zapruder with the first shot missing (eventual victims looking over their shoulder, then hit, the JFK kill shot last). There just isn’t room for more than three shots in what people reported (majority reporting it was three) or for evidence of another shooter.
Click to expand...

very very well said. If there was a second shooter there needed to be MORE than three shots bc without question 3 shots came from the 6th floor.

This second shooter supposedly got off at least one shot killing the president by hitting him in the head but didn’t leave any forensic evidence of either himself, his gun or the bullet.

Now THAT would truly be “the magic bullet”.
 
Illustrious Potentate said:
I haven't looked enough into to really form an opinion. I've never really been enamored with the Kennedy assassination. All I'm gonna add is that I do a lot of deer hunting, and I'm not taking a shot with tree obstruction, and 9 times out of 10 if the first shot misses, the second shot isn't gonna hit either, especially with a bolt action rifle.
Click to expand...

dbldwn711 said:
appreciate your thoughts. FWIW I don’t think hunting a deer and this scenario are comparable but that’s just my opinion. Kennedy was in a car, on road going straight at about 11 mph when the second and third shots were taken. IMO that’s a completely different scenario then trying to hit a deer that is already alerted to your presence by a missed shot.
Click to expand...
For me these things are viable points to question. On the one hand Oswald was out there. He was deranged and believed he was on a mission for an ideology he could never fully define. Maybe he was aiming up to catch them past the tree and he just accidentally squeezed it off.

Admittedly, it would make much sense in this case that the next two shots would be hurried and wild, but that’s not a guarantee.

It’s just the most plausible to me of likelihood’s and more so than any conspiracy I’ve seen that can’t stand the test of time and advancing technology.
 
broncosmitty said:
Read my posts.
Click to expand...
Confused Confusion GIF
 
Another thing that bugs me is Oswald is often included in the conspiracy. If you read enough about this guy….from people who knew him, worked with him, etc….this was not a guy you bring into a conspiracy with you. He’s not a solid candidate you would trust to be part of this. He had a wavering allegiance, his moods and interests changed with the day.

He was exactly what everyone watching him had him pegged as….a pain in the ass he’s too much of a moron to do anything serious. They were wrong.

In many conspiracy oriented texts Oswald is given token attention, if that. I’ve always wondered why that was.
 
Orlando_Eagles said:
For me these things are viable points to question. On the one hand Oswald was out there. He was deranged and believed he was on a mission for an ideology he could never fully define. Maybe he was aiming up to catch them past the tree and he just accidentally squeezed it off.

Admittedly, it would make much sense in this case that the next two shots would be hurried and wild, but that’s not a guarantee.

It’s just the most plausible to me of likelihood’s and more so than any conspiracy I’ve seen that can’t stand the test of time and advancing technology.
Click to expand...

I agree. While I don’t think the shot is an extraordinary one it is certainly far from an easy one. However, I’ve seen guys walk onto a basketball court with no preparation and swish a half court shot to win some stupid contest. I’m not equating the two but I am saying things a lot “luckier” than this happen on a routine basis.

Oswald had already tried to shoot and kill someone (General walker). He missed but he had at least experienced that adrenaline rush. He at least experienced those nerves. He was familiar with the sight lines in dealey plaza. He had at least a few days to think about it. He had set up the boxes at his snipers nest. This was difficult but not completely foreign to him.
 
dbldwn711 said:
The house select committee on assassinations which investigated the jfk shooting agrees with this. They concluded that there were 3 shots and the first one missed. The second struck Kennedy and Connolly and the third shot was the head shot.
Click to expand...

They also conclude that it was a conspiracy. hahaha That's called cherry-picking when you pick and choose the parts that support your argument while ignoring the parts that contradict it.

From the conclusions of the HSCA....


Conclusions regarding the Kennedy assassination​

On the Kennedy assassination, the HSCA concluded in its 1979 report that:[1]

  1. Lee Harvey Oswald fired three shots at Kennedy. The second and third shots Oswald fired struck the President. The third shot he fired killed the President.
  2. Scientific acoustical evidence establishes a high probability that at least two gunmen fired at the President. Other scientific evidence does not preclude the possibility of two gunmen firing at the President. Scientific evidence negates some specific conspiracy allegations.
  3. The committee believes, on the basis of the evidence available to it, that Kennedy was probably assassinated as a result of a conspiracy. The committee was unable to identify the other gunmen or the extent of the conspiracy.
    • The committee believes, on the basis of the evidence available to it, that the Soviet Government was not involved in the assassination of Kennedy.
    • The committee believes, on the basis of the evidence available to it, that the Cuban Government was not involved in the assassination of Kennedy.
    • The committee believes, on the basis of the evidence available to it, that anti-Castro Cuban groups, as groups, were not involved in the assassination of Kennedy, but that the available evidence does not preclude the possibility that individual members may have been involved.
    • The committee believes, on the basis of the evidence available to it, that the national syndicate of organized crime, as a group, was not involved in the assassination of Kennedy, but that the available evidence does not preclude the possibility that individual members may have been involved. (Like Marcello)
    • The Secret Service, Federal Bureau of Investigation, and Central Intelligence Agency were not involved in the assassination of Kennedy.
  4. Agencies and departments of the U.S. Government performed with varying degrees of competency in the fulfillment of their duties. President Kennedy did not receive adequate protection. A thorough and reliable investigation into the responsibility of Lee Harvey Oswald for the assassination was conducted. The investigation into the possibility of conspiracy in the assassination was inadequate. The conclusions of the investigations were arrived at in good faith, but presented in a fashion that was too definitive.
The Committee further concluded that it was probable that:

  • four shots were fired
  • the fourth shot came from a second assassin located on the grassy knoll, but missed. The HSCA concluded the existence and location of this alleged fourth shot based on the later discredited Dallas Police Department Dictabelt recording analysis.
 
dbldwn711 said:
ok this is the one I was referring to.
Click to expand...
No casings in the grass shouldn’t be a surprise. Casing left in tTSBD is the surprise.

It is not difficult to retain casing from a rifle.
 
Orlando_Eagles said:
Another thing that bugs me is Oswald is often included in the conspiracy. If you read enough about this guy….from people who knew him, worked with him, etc….this was not a guy you bring into a conspiracy with you. He’s not a solid candidate you would trust to be part of this. He had a wavering allegiance, his moods and interests changed with the day.

He was exactly what everyone watching him had him pegged as….a pain in the ass he’s too much of a moron to do anything serious. They were wrong.

In many conspiracy oriented texts Oswald is given token attention, if that. I’ve always wondered why that was.
Click to expand...
He told us himself, he was a patsy.
 
Orlando_Eagles said:
Another thing that bugs me is Oswald is often included in the conspiracy. If you read enough about this guy….from people who knew him, worked with him, etc….this was not a guy you bring into a conspiracy with you. He’s not a solid candidate you would trust to be part of this. He had a wavering allegiance, his moods and interests changed with the day.

He was exactly what everyone watching him had him pegged as….a pain in the ass he’s too much of a moron to do anything serious. They were wrong.

In many conspiracy oriented texts Oswald is given token attention, if that. I’ve always wondered why that was.
Click to expand...

I completely agree and it’s why I don’t think the mafia “used” him as a killer which would in turn dispense with the need for Ruby to “silence” him.

why? LOTS of reasons. First, I’ve already talked about the walker shooting. If Oswald was hired by the mob to kill Kennedy then why risk exposing yourself/getting caught trying to kill walker? Also, the mafia didn’t get Oswald the job at the TSBD. Ruth Paine did. She’s clearly not connected to the mafia.

additionally, I read the book that @Bayou Tiger referenced. I was completely fascinated with David Ferrie and those characters. But according to that book the mafia was making plans to “hit” Kennedy all the way back in 1962. They were making plans to take out Kennedy then (according to the book). Problem is Oswald was living in Dallas in 1962 when the mafia was supposedly making their plans. Oswald didn’t go to New Orleans till the summer of 1963 long after the mafias plans were being made and long before the trip to Dallas was even announced! MOST IMPORTANTLY Oswald went to Mexico in September of 1963 trying to get a visa to Cuba!! If he was “recruited” into some plan to kill the president (which is something he clearly wanted to do) in the summer of 1963 why would he try to leave for cuba in September? That makes no sense!! If he had been successful in getting his visa to cuba he wouldn’t have even been in Dallas in November of 1963.

Lastly, let’s say Oswald was part of this conspiracy with the mafia and he was gonna do it from the TSBD. Ok… the trip gets announced a few days before the assassination and there is no evidence that Oswald was ever contacted by anyone (let alone the mafia) in the few days between the trip being announced and the actual killing. Where’s the planning? Where’s the meetings to go over everything? By all accounts Oswald did nothing out of the ordinary (except visit his wife the day before the assassination) that would suggest he was involved in anything resembling a plot to kill the president. There no rush of phone calls or him disappearing to go meet with people.

Nope. I don’t buy it.
 
Bayou Tiger said:
They also conclude that it was a conspiracy. hahaha That's called cherry-picking when you pick and choose the parts that support your argument while ignoring the parts that contradict it.

From the conclusions of the HSCA....


Conclusions regarding the Kennedy assassination​

On the Kennedy assassination, the HSCA concluded in its 1979 report that:[1]

  1. Lee Harvey Oswald fired three shots at Kennedy. The second and third shots Oswald fired struck the President. The third shot he fired killed the President.
  2. Scientific acoustical evidence establishes a high probability that at least two gunmen fired at the President. Other scientific evidence does not preclude the possibility of two gunmen firing at the President. Scientific evidence negates some specific conspiracy allegations.
  3. The committee believes, on the basis of the evidence available to it, that Kennedy was probably assassinated as a result of a conspiracy. The committee was unable to identify the other gunmen or the extent of the conspiracy.
    • The committee believes, on the basis of the evidence available to it, that the Soviet Government was not involved in the assassination of Kennedy.
    • The committee believes, on the basis of the evidence available to it, that the Cuban Government was not involved in the assassination of Kennedy.
    • The committee believes, on the basis of the evidence available to it, that anti-Castro Cuban groups, as groups, were not involved in the assassination of Kennedy, but that the available evidence does not preclude the possibility that individual members may have been involved.
    • The committee believes, on the basis of the evidence available to it, that the national syndicate of organized crime, as a group, was not involved in the assassination of Kennedy, but that the available evidence does not preclude the possibility that individual members may have been involved. (Like Marcello)
    • The Secret Service, Federal Bureau of Investigation, and Central Intelligence Agency were not involved in the assassination of Kennedy.
  4. Agencies and departments of the U.S. Government performed with varying degrees of competency in the fulfillment of their duties. President Kennedy did not receive adequate protection. A thorough and reliable investigation into the responsibility of Lee Harvey Oswald for the assassination was conducted. The investigation into the possibility of conspiracy in the assassination was inadequate. The conclusions of the investigations were arrived at in good faith, but presented in a fashion that was too definitive.
The Committee further concluded that it was probable that:

  • four shots were fired
  • the fourth shot came from a second assassin located on the grassy knoll, but missed. The HSCA concluded the existence and location of this alleged fourth shot based on the later discredited Dallas Police Department Dictabelt recording analysis.
Click to expand...

im not cherry picking. They withdrew that conclusion not long after making it. Are you aware of that?

also, that conclusion was based upon some “hot mics” on some police radios but when they found it was erroneous they withdrew the the findings you cited above.
 
dbldwn711 said:
ok… here’s the patent applications for brass catchers. You said they’ve been available for “decades”. I agree. According to all these patents they go back to 1984. Here’s the link…

Shell Catchers Patents and Patent Applications (Class 42/98) - Justia Patents Search

Search for Shell Catchers Patents and Patent Applications (Class 42/98) Filed with the USPTO
patents.justia.com patents.justia.com

Kennedy was shot 2 decades before that in 1963. Do you have anything to support that brass catchers were available to the general public in November of 1963?
Click to expand...
Multiple nations used brass catchers in WWII.

Oswald used a WWII surplus rifle. Bought it via the post office.

I don’t pretend to know who the others involved were. But am of the opinion they were professional. Not a difficult item to obtain. Or cut the toe out of sock, slip it over the barrel. Not difficult if you don’t want to leave evidence.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top