More Michigan Cheating

[SlinkyRedfoot]

So the schedule is why JJ is a Heisman candidate, but Michigan is only beating teams like we have because of the guy stealing signs.

Got it.

Fair point.

Maybe JJ is a Heisman candidate because of Michigan's schedule and the guy stealing signs.

 

[BusSport]

I'm not giving the guy a pass. I've said what he did was wrong and he should be punished for it. I was ready to hang Harbaugh out to dry when I first heard it. The only reason I CANNOT FATHOM that Harbaugh, Sherrone Moore, Jesse Minter (I think that is our DC) had any clue what the guy was doing is -- the guy used his personal credit card.

If you were making millions of dollars coaching football -- that is simply not something you'd turn a blind eye to. IF they were on board with it -- the LAST THING they'd do is tell the guy to use his personal credit card to buy tickets. I HOPE Michigan's coach staff isn't that ignorant.

That's not an argument against his working for them at all. They told him to go scout the games, but didn't want to know any details. So he didn't tell them about using his personal credit card, and they never asked.

It's just like any other time a boss orders an underling to do stuff that the boss knows is shady or illegal, so he doesn't want to know the details.

 

[batchaps4me]

Are they banking on a team not changing their signs on a game to game basis? That is what I don't get. We changed up the signs, we changed up the indicators, we changed up everything from game to game. I cannot fathom every D1 football program doesn't do this.

That is what has me lost. It isn't one person sending in signals from the sideline. It is multiple people sending in signals. You can see that on the TV every weekend any time they pan to the sideline between plays.

Let me try to put these two together. Sure you change the signs and indicators as does everyone. Now IF I can film your sideline across multiple games, I can easily deduce how many people are using dummy signs and of the real signs, I can tell how many and which ones are used for what group of players. When it comes to in-game, would I have an advantage trying to decipher your communications with that knowledge?

 

[NewPhoneWhoDis]

Good point.

JJ is a Heisman candidate because of Michigan's schedule and the guy stealing signs.

Let's be honest -- Ohio State helped make him look like a Heisman candidate with their stellar defensive strategy last year. It is tough to hit guys open by 10+ yards.

 

[Across The Field]

I'm going to argue the NFL analysts have said no QB in CFB has made more NFL level throws than JJ McCarthy, which is why he is being mocked as a top 5 pick right now.

A little trivia for you. When JJ McCarthy is drafted in the first round -- he will be the 1st QB from Michigan drafted in the 1st round since............................................Jim Harbaugh.

He might be a good pro, he might not. We'll see. Either way, though, that's got nothing to do with the Heisman. Let him do something, anything, against a good defense then I'll listen. It's also sad that Harbaugh has been there just shy of a decade and hasn't produced a single QB talent until now considering he was supposed to be the "QB whisperer".

 

[Across The Field]

You won't here me pumping up Michigan's schedule. It has been a joke. I don't even watch the 2nd half of most games. If you look up on this board about two months ago -- I said, Michigan's schedule doesn't start until week 10 or 11, whatever week we play PSU.

I'll give you credit there, you haven't.

 

[Across The Field]

Let's be honest -- Ohio State helped make him look like a Heisman candidate with their stellar defensive strategy last year. It is tough to hit guys open by 10+ yards.

JJ overall looked like shit against OSU last year. He had two deep throws to wide open dudes and a third throw that was like 90% YAC. Otherwise he went 9/21 for for like 79 yards. Let's be real here.

 

[NewPhoneWhoDis]

That's not an argument against his working for them at all. They told him to go scout the games, but didn't want to know any details. So he didn't tell them about using his personal credit card, and they never asked.

It's just like any other time a boss orders an underling to do stuff that the boss knows is shady, so he doesn't want to know the details.

Come on now. You can't possibly believe that. This is a multi billion dollar university with an entire coaching staff getting paid millions of dollars, with an alumni base who fight with each other to pay millions of dollars to send the team on field trips around the globe.

If the guy was told to go scout a future opponent -- they could have had ANYONE buy the tickets. A neighbor. The janitor. The mailman. ANYONE but a member of the coaching staff. That is the one and only reason I don't think the coaches had a clue what he was doing, as none of them would risk 7 figure jobs so a guy trying to crack a code making 55k could have friends tape the games.

 

[BusSport]

Come on now. You can't possibly believe that. This is a multi billion dollar university with an entire coaching staff getting paid millions of dollars, with an alumni base who fight with each other to pay millions of dollars to send the team on field trips around the globe.

If the guy was told to go scout a future opponent -- they could have had ANYONE buy the tickets. A neighbor. The janitor. The mailman. ANYONE but a member of the coaching staff. That is the one and only reason I don't think the coaches had a clue what he was doing, as none of them would risk 7 figure jobs so a guy trying to crack a code making 55k could have friends tape the games.

They didn't give him specific instructions, they didn't want to know the details, because they knew it was shady/illegal stuff. It's just like the corrupt CEO ordering a whistleblower "taken care of" and not wanting to know how the fixer then goes about it.

 

[ellupo]

Here is what confuses me with it. Say the military guy picked out a sign -- those calls are coming within seconds of the ball being snapped. I know we had 3 people giving signs at the same time and we weren't anywhere near the D1 P5 level. This was before all of the technology now available, so teams are even more secretive about their hand signals, using signs, etc.

It is way above my pay grade. Best I can think is he could say to the DC, i think it is a pass or i think it is a run. You'd have to know the playbook of the opposing team to know exactly what plays are being called from the sideline.

The sign would give run/pass which direction things like that. If you knew from the sign that it was a run play left in the B gap that would obviously help immensely. Now I dont know how detailed this guy got and to what level he could read the signs.

 

[NewPhoneWhoDis]

JJ overall looked like shit against OSU last year. He had two deep throws to wide open dudes and a third throw that was like 90% YAC. Otherwise he went 9/21 for for like 79 yards. Let's be real here.

That's like saying Stroud wasn't good last year if you take away the three 40 yard throws. Or Edwards was trash if you take away the 85 and 75 yard run. Or Harrison Jr was held in check if you take away the 42 yard td against our back up CB.

You can't take away plays and then say, they weren't good. It happened. The end result was 3 tds, almost 300 yards passing and a QBR of 94.

 

[NewPhoneWhoDis]

They didn't give him specific instructions, they didn't want to know the details, because they knew it was shady/illegal stuff. It's just like the corrupt CEO ordering a whistleblower "taken care of" and not wanting to know how the fixer then goes about it.

I just can't buy into this because of the credit card purchases. No coach in America is going to turn a blind eye to that. Everyone has a guy on the staff whose job it is, is to try and figure out the signs of the opposing team. I just can't seem to grasp anyone knowing anything about what this guy was doing because of those CC purchases.

 

[ellupo]

Good take here …

This one is very telling.

 

[MAIZEandBLUE09]

Keep avoiding the costs of travel, accommodations, meals, etc.

Do you think these 3rd parties were spending their own monies out of the goodness of their hearts?

Also if Rhule were buying me a ticket for the sole reason that he obtain video of a future opponents sideline signals, that would indeed be a violation of the rule.

You've been told this for 38 pages now.

All of that would depend on where the money came from. If Stephen Ross wants to pay for someone to attend games, that doesn't make them an employee of the university.

 

[MAIZEandBLUE09]

Then why is the NCAA investigating them?

I certainly think there's enough here to investigate what Michigan was doing, and I certainly think they've being operating in a grey area. I have no problem with that.

 

[Across The Field]

That's like saying Stroud wasn't good last year if you take away the three 40 yard throws. Or Edwards was trash if you take away the 85 and 75 yard run. Or Harrison Jr was held in check if you take away the 42 yard td against our back up CB.

You can't take away plays and then say, they weren't good. It happened. The end result was 3 tds, almost 300 yards passing and a QBR of 94.

Context. Those three throws weren't anything special. One was a short out pattern that is pedestrian, and the other two were deep heaves to wide open WRs. If outside of those 3 throws he still looked really good, it'd be different. But, he looked horrible outside of those three throws, which themselves were nothing special to begin with. Also, Harrison wasn't held in check outside of that TD; he still had 6 catches for 80 yards otherwise.

 

[MAIZEandBLUE09]

This one is very telling.

It isn't. Michigan adjusting to an audible called by Ohio State, in a very clear passing formation and motioning the secondary to back up, is something any team should be able to do on normal scouting.

 

[Across The Field]

I certainly think there's enough here to investigate what Michigan was doing, and I certainly think they've being operating in a grey area. I have no problem with that.

Yet you've repeatedly said it's nothing at all. So which is it?

 

[Red_Alert]

I just can't buy into this because of the credit card purchases. No coach in America is going to turn a blind eye to that. Everyone has a guy on the staff whose job it is, is to try and figure out the signs of the opposing team. I just can't seem to grasp anyone knowing anything about what this guy was doing because of those CC purchases.

How else would it be done? You certainly wouldn't want the ticket purchases directly related to the football budget.

 

[NewPhoneWhoDis]

The sign would give run/pass which direction things like that. If you knew from the sign that it was a run play left in the B gap that would obviously help immensely. Now I dont know how detailed this guy got and to what level he could read the signs.

Yes, but the signs change every game. That is what confuses me. No only do the signs change each game, but teams change the guy giving the actual signs used, they change the order of the signs, they change the indicator of when the actual play call will actually be signed in.

That is the part I don't get. To give you an example We had 2 backup QB's and offensive assistant who'd all be signalling at the same time. An example of the indicator -- until the offensive assistant swiped across his chest and down his right arm, all other signs were non-sense. Once that indicator came up, the next signal would be the actual play call. In our offense, the QB had a wrist band and the signals would give the QB a number sequence and the QB would find it on the wrist band. That was the play call.

Each quarter the indicator changed and the person who was actually calling in the play would change.