What If JFK Wasn’t a Conspiracy

[broncosmitty]

Intriguing. I’m interested to learn more about this. The parameters that were at play. I can’t imagine 12 people that were not aware of any of this could be found (that would be just as true, or more, in 1964-65 too).

I’m sure Bugliosi was certain this mock conviction was all his greatness too. Ha.

I might deep dive on all of this tonight.

They’ve done other mock ups as well.

But they go with Federal charges. Which wouldn’t have been the case had Oswald not been killed by Ruby. Would’ve been a State case.

Lee Harvey Oswald gets hung jury at mock JFK murder trial

The jury deadlocked 9-3 in favor of guilt. And Texas State Bar attendees overwhelmingly believe the assassination was a conspiracy.

www.google.com

 

[dbldwn711]

I’ll add one more thing about the trial that @broncosmitty is talking about.

Even if Oswald didn’t fire a shot but knew about the conspiracy and merely brought his gun to work that day so someone else could shoot Kennedy he’s STILL guilty of murder under the rules of law regarding co-conspirators.

The only way Oswald is acquitted is if you can show he knew absolutely NOTHING about a plot to try and kill Kennedy. In other words, he’s truly a “patsy”

 

[broncosmitty]

fwiw I was full on it was a conspiracy when I watched this. It was clumsy to say the least. Spence did what he could given what he had to work with. By no means do I think this trial would be anything like the trial @broncosmitty was contemplating. This one was much tamer bc it was done over 20 years after the fact and so many witnesses were unavailable. Also, there is no way that a trial such as the one @broncosmitty is suggesting would be finished in 5 hours. Haha. It would surely be more OJ-like.

You’re point about no unanimity on the first ballot is a great one too. I completely agree. Not sure id vote guilty on the first ballot.

Trials have so many variables. A skilled lawyer can make a nervous witness appear to be lying or unsure. I don’t think you can say definitively a jury would convict or acquit that’s why it’s a great question.

EDIT: I think the trial was done in London. Not sure how many of those jurors would have known about all the extraneous stuff

It would’ve been months for sure.

Assuming some high profile lawyer would’ve taken up the case to get more notoriety.

 

[broncosmitty]

I’ll add one more thing about the trial that @broncosmitty is talking about.

Even if Oswald didn’t fire a shot but knew about the conspiracy and merely brought his gun to work that day so someone else could shoot Kennedy he’s STILL guilty of murder under the rules of law regarding co-conspirators.

The only way Oswald is acquitted is if you can show he knew absolutely NOTHING about a plot to try and kill Kennedy. In other words, he’s truly a “patsy”

I don’t know what the sentencing for conspiracy to commit murder would’ve been back in the 60’s.

But it’s Texas, so odds are he would’ve faced the Death Penalty.

 

[dbldwn711]

They’ve done other mock ups as well.

But they go with Federal charges. Which wouldn’t have been the case had Oswald not been killed by Ruby. Would’ve been a State case.

Lee Harvey Oswald gets hung jury at mock JFK murder trial

The jury deadlocked 9-3 in favor of guilt. And Texas State Bar attendees overwhelmingly believe the assassination was a conspiracy.

www.google.com

yup… just what @Orlando_Eagles was saying. It only takes one to hang a jury. That one had 3. The interview with one of the three (the 82 year old man) was great! Haha. He’s surely not alone in what he believes.

 

[dbldwn711]

It would’ve been months for sure.

Assuming some high profile lawyer would’ve taken up the case to get more notoriety.

at least months!!!

 

[DraftNerd]

It would’ve been months for sure.

Assuming some high profile lawyer would’ve taken up the case to get more notoriety.

I read in the book that Oswald was already asking for a guy that often defended left wing causes. Think his last name was Apt. It was something where Oswald asked for him and one of the cops thought “yep, this guy is a commie”.

Would someone like that take the case? I think it’s most assuredly a yes.

 

[broncosmitty]

at least months!!!

Yeah.

Gotta assume the defense would’ve sought out the names of every person known to have been in Dealy Plaza. All the still photos and all four of the films.

Military associates of Oswald, Russian associates, everyone from the TSBD… would’ve been long as hell.

 

[DraftNerd]

They’ve done other mock ups as well.

But they go with Federal charges. Which wouldn’t have been the case had Oswald not been killed by Ruby. Would’ve been a State case.

Lee Harvey Oswald gets hung jury at mock JFK murder trial

The jury deadlocked 9-3 in favor of guilt. And Texas State Bar attendees overwhelmingly believe the assassination was a conspiracy.

www.google.com

I think this would be much closer to a potential reality than the Bugliosi one.

Just reading the article is sounded like Bugliosi in the role of Hannity and the defense guy in the role of Combs. Ha.

This was a really good thought experiment.

What about you, Bronco? Same question….same parameters. What do you vote, and do you feel you could stick to it through more ballots and deliberation?

 

[DraftNerd]

Yeah.

Gotta assume the defense would’ve sought out the names of every person known to have been in Dealy Plaza. All the still photos and all four of the films.

Military associates of Oswald, Russian associates, everyone from the TSBD… would’ve been long as hell.

Oh man….I’m just thinking of all the people from the book that had contact with Oswald after he came back from Russia.

They would all paint a very similar picture, down to every person (provided his mother wasn’t in that group. She was nuts).

 

[broncosmitty]

I read in the book that Oswald was already asking for a guy that often defended left wing causes. Think his last name was Apt. It was something where Oswald asked for him and one of the cops thought “yep, this guy is a commie”.

Would someone like that take the case? I think it’s most assuredly a yes.

Yeah, I think Oswald called him a few times, or somebody called him for Oswald in the time between his arrest and murder.

 

[dbldwn711]

Yeah, I think Oswald called him a few times, or somebody called him for Oswald in the time between his arrest and murder.

Oswald better get a great lawyer bc he’s also gonna get charged with shooting tippet. Haha. Not sure he’s gonna be able to get out of that one. Haha.

 

[DraftNerd]

Oswald better get a great lawyer bc he’s also gonna get charged with shooting tippet. Haha. Not sure he’s gonna be able to get out of that one. Haha.

He’s dead to rights on Tippit. No other way. They had witnesses left and right.

A bunch of them were interviewed 30 years later for this book. He was sunk there. Cop killer. Almost don’t need anymore (and least punitively).

Good point before about being a co-conspirator. It would be totally established he took that gun to work. They had all the evidence on that.

 

[broncosmitty]

I think this would be much closer to a potential reality than the Bugliosi one.

Just reading the article is sounded like Bugliosi in the role of Hannity and the defense guy in the role of Combs. Ha.

This was a really good thought experiment.

What about you, Bronco? Same question….same parameters. What do you vote, and do you feel you could stick to it through more ballots and deliberation?

I don’t see how I wouldn’t vote guilty on conspiracy and attempted murder, if those were the charges.

But I’d the juror leaving it hanging if it were only a murder charge. As I don’t think he finished him off.

(Assuming that back thru neck shot wouldn’t have been fatal. The giant hole was from the bullet. JFK was trached, for some reason, before being pronounced dead. Which has never seemed necessary…)

 

[broncosmitty]

Oswald better get a great lawyer bc he’s also gonna get charged with shooting tippet. Haha. Not sure he’s gonna be able to get out of that one. Haha.

That’s why I left it out of my question.

Seems like an easy conviction. Although I’ve only glossed over most of that.

 

[DraftNerd]

I don’t see how I wouldn’t vote guilty on conspiracy and attempted murder, if those were the charges.

But I’d the juror leaving it hanging if it were only a murder charge. As I don’t think he finished him off.

(Assuming that back thru neck shot wouldn’t have been fatal. The giant hole was from the bullet. JFK was trached, for some reason, before being pronounced dead. Which has never seemed necessary…)

Seems to have always been some confusion on if he had any vitals or not when he came in. Attendings said slight heartbeat was detected so they were trying to get him air. They made the front neck wound much larger to trach him. I’m a little puzzled why too.

But, I also have no clue what that moment was like for those doctors. Can you imagine kicking back in the lounge on what’s been a slow day and then you get that wheeled in?

 

[dbldwn711]

I think that the particular circumstance of JFKs assassination lends itself to the belief that their must be a conspiracy. Most assassination attempts occur when one man runs up the president (or some other famous person) and shoots them and is then tackled. Think about events like the attempt on Jackson Andrew (the gun misfires), the attempt on Ronald Reagan, the shooting of arch duke ferdinand, etc. This is a long rifle shot. It’s like something you would see in a movie (the jackal, day of the assassins, etc) and then guy isn’t captured immediately so you’re not sure if it’s “the guy”. Then you add on top of all that a guy like Ruby who looks like the prototypical “wanna be mob guy” shooting Oswald 48 hours later and people just WANNA believe “there has to be more to it than this. There must be a conspiracy.”

 

[Mofo]

I think that the particular circumstance of JFKs assassination lends itself to the belief that their must be a conspiracy. Most assassination attempts occur when one man runs up the president (or some other famous person) and shoots them and is then tackled. Think about events like the attempt on Jackson Andrew (the gun misfires), the attempt on Ronald Reagan, the shooting of arch duke ferdinand, etc. This is a long rifle shot. It’s like something you would see in a movie (the jackal, day of the assassins, etc) and then guy isn’t captured immediately so you’re not sure if it’s “the guy”. Then you add on top of all that a guy like Ruby who looks like the prototypical “wanna be mob guy” shooting Oswald 48 hours later and people just WANNA believe “there has to be more to it than this. There must be a conspiracy.”

It was swept up quickly, and JFK had lots of enemies, which made the idea of a conspiracy more alluring.

Oswald absolutely could have been the lone shooter / disgruntled nutcase that he's always been perceived to be. Certainly there were lots of other low-tech or one man assassination attempts on presidents, some of them even successfully: the grenade attack on Bush II, Hinkley shooting Reagan, Puerto Ricans gunning for Truman, the mobster going after FDR, Booth on Lincoln, etc. It wasn't just entirely possible- it had even been tried before (and successfully). Oswald was a trained killer and was absolutely capable of scoring 2 kills off three shots from a few hundred feet away, if I remember Full Metal Jacket correctly.

That there was (and still is) so much classified material surrounding the JFK assassination, is also troubling. If the Cubans, Soviets, mob or Freemasons definitely didn't kill Kennedy and Oswald alone definitely did, then why all the secrecy almost 60 years later?

 

[beardown07]

Since I haven't seen this yet...correct me if I'm wrong.

CIA Dr. Louis Jolyon West.

He was "treating" Ruby.

He was deeply involved in MkUltra, most famously, for killing an elephant with LSD.

 

[dbldwn711]

It was swept up quickly, and JFK had lots of enemies, which made the idea of a conspiracy more alluring.

Oswald absolutely could have been the lone shooter / disgruntled nutcase that he's always been perceived to be. Certainly there were lots of other low-tech or one man assassination attempts on presidents, some of them even successfully: the grenade attack on Bush II, Hinkley shooting Reagan, Puerto Ricans gunning for Truman, the mobster going after FDR, Booth on Lincoln, etc. It wasn't just entirely possible- it had even been tried before (and successfully). Oswald was a trained killer and was absolutely capable of scoring 2 kills off three shots from a few hundred feet away, if I remember Full Metal Jacket correctly.

That there was (and still is) so much classified material surrounding the JFK assassination, is also troubling. If the Cubans, Soviets, mob or Freemasons definitely didn't kill Kennedy and Oswald alone definitely did, then why all the secrecy almost 60 years later?

it wouldn’t surprise me in the LEAST if someone some day pulled out a surveillance tape of some mafia guy saying something about some plot that they wanted to kill Kennedy. It wouldn’t surprise me in the least! He was hated. I’d say the same about some of the far right groups like the John birch society. What would surprise me is if either on of those groups (or any other group that hated Kennedy) talked on those tapes about dealey plaza on 11/23/63, Oswald, etc. If there were assassination plots being contemplated then Oswald got to them first.

Here’s why I think the documents remain sealed. I think there’s a lot of very embarrassing stuff out there about how our govt fucked up in protecting him. In particular the SS. One of the first things that earl Warren discussed publicly after being appointed to the WC was about the behavior of the SS both leading up to that day and that day. Kennedy was a womanizer. He set a bad example for the SS. Whenever they got to a town there was lots of drinking and lots of women around. Some in the SS had said “your behavior is gonna get him killed one day”.

The night before the assassination several members of the SS were out drinking in an after hours club till well after 2 AM. Some were out till 5 AM. They had to be up at 6AM bc the President had an early breakfast setting with people before they flew to Dallas that morning. Also, the driver of the presidents limo really fucked up. He’s TRAINED to immediately start swerving the car and get them the hell out of there the second he hears anything like a gunshot. What did he do? He slows down and turns his head to look BACK at the president. That made Kennedy an easy target. When they got to the hospital that driver was distraught. He apologized to Jackie for what he did. He testified under oath at the WC. I don’t think he was part of any large scale government conspiracy to kill Kennedy but he would be one of the CRUCIAL guys to have if there was one. Where’s ANY evidence that he was? His malfeasance alone is not “proof” of a conspiracy.

I read an article in some magazine a long time ago that talked about the SS and their conduct. I’ll try to dig it up. It talks about this in way more detail than I just did.