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So somebody paid a Doctor Baden type to contradict what the first doctor said.
Color me shocked.
What If JFK Wasn’t a Conspiracy
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Color me shocked.
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This link also says it’s from the top of the head and not the back.
McAdams's Kennedy Assassination Home Page Index
mcadams.posc.mu.edu
There really isn’t much controversy here. The occipital portion (the back) of president Kennedy’s skull is in tact. It’s fractured (ie cracked) but in tact. That means that this is not from the back of the presidents skull.
lolzzzz go outside and run down the street, you just ran faster than the car was going.
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I wanna talk more about this motorcade route because I believe this goes directly to the heart of a lot of conspiracy theories. (I promise @beardown07 this isn’t directed at you. Haha. Although you brining up the topic for discussion is much appreciated).
let’s look at a timeline:
A potential presidential trip to TEXAS (not necessarily Dallas) was FIRST kicked around on June 5, 1963 at the Cotez Hotel in El Paso. Earlier that day, Kennedy had spoken at the Air Force Academy in CO and afterwards had stopped in El Paso to meet with VP Johnson and Gov. Connolly about “a trip in the fall”. At the meeting, the three agreed that Kennedy would come to TEXAS sometime late in November 1963. The original plan was for Kennedy to spend ONE day in TX and do a whirlwind tour of the state visiting Dallas, Fort Worth, San Antonio and Houston.
It wasn’t until September that the WH permitted an extended trip to Texas which would run from the afternoon of November 21 thru the evening of November 22. Although the exact DETAILS regarding exactly where the president would go during those two days was NOT settled at this time the WH announced the trip publicly. (This is what I said in my previous post).
On October 4, Gov Connolly called the WH to discuss the details of this trip and it was during this phone call that it was agreed that Gov Connolly was to PLAN the events for this trip. It was also agreed upon that if a motorcade was to be used (and the consensus on that call was that if time permitted they wanted to have one) that the SS would plan the route.
On November 4, for the FIRST TIME, the two SS agents in charge of advanced prep for this TEXAS trip (Winston Lawson and Forrest Sorrels) were advised of the trip.
On November 8 Lawson received a TENTATIVE schedule for the ENTIRE Texas trip. No details such as a motorcade route, location for the luncheon, etc were established yet.
It wasn’t until November 14 that the Trade Mart was chosen as the site for the luncheon. Now that a luncheon site had been chosen the SS could now plan a motorcade route.
Lawson and Sorrels were now tasked with establishing a motorcade route that could be completed in the allotted time of 45 minutes (remember they had lots of scheduled events so they had to stay on schedule). On November 15, the 2 SS agents met with Dallas police chief Curry, Asst Chief Batchelor, Deputy chief Fisher AND several other command command officers to discuss details of the motorcade and possible routes. During this meeting, the police officials agreed that the route set forth by the 2 SS agents was the proper one and they did not suggest any other potential routes. (That’s a lot of people, not just one, signing off on this route).
On November 18, the 2 SS agents along with several of the police officials at that meeting actually drove the route to be sure it could be finished within the 45 minute allotted time. Once verified that all was good with the route the 2 SS agents notified the WH of the FINAL route for the motorcade. This is literally days before the president was shot and killed.
A quick side note here. Main st was chosen for the motorcade route rather than elm st (which runs parallel to main) because main st offered better vantage points for spectators. Also, the elm st approach to stemmons freeway was chosen because it was the most direct route to the trade mart and avoided the concrete barriers that were in place that prevented a right turn from main st onto stemmons freeway. (I previously posted a video which showed those concrete barriers).
The motorcade route was published for the FIRST TIME in the Dallas newspaper the next day, November 19. (Kennedy was shot and killed 4 days later).
That’s a lot of detail. Why is that important? If factions of the government were in a conspiracy to kill Kennedy they only had DAYS to plot, prepare and travel to Dealey plaza to shoot Kennedy bc even the guys planning the motorcade route didn’t finalize it till then. More importantly, how would these conspirators know to even involve Oswald (either as a co-conspirator or a patsy) until they knew the motorcade route would pass right by his job? At BEST these conspirators MAY have had more time if 1) the person who chose the trade mart as the luncheon site was one of them or 2) one or both of these SS agents who chose the actual motorcade route were one of them but even then they only had an extra week or so to plan all this and either involve Oswald or set up a scenario to set him up.
I just don’t see it. Even if these “death squads” (as @batchaps4me joked about earlier) existed there’s no time to set up Oswald to take the fall.
These are the types of details that the book goes into. Conspiracy theorists are long on stories but short on details. As the saying goes, the devil is in the details. Conspiracy theorists will point to “problems” with the official version (magic bullet, head movement, etc) but I think explaining how they planned and executed a conspiracy this big, involving this many people, in such a short time, where nobody got caught, no evidence of any forensics was left behind AND nobody has ever talked is the bigger “problem” to explain. @Nosferatu posted something about if two people know a secret the only way to keep that secret is to kill one of them as a reason for Ruby to kill Oswald. Well, what about all the people who would need to be involved in THIS secret?
If people are truly passionate about this subject I recommend the book. It’s got great detail. It by no means has all the answers but, for me at least, it answered more questions than it raised… a lot more.
let’s look at a timeline:
A potential presidential trip to TEXAS (not necessarily Dallas) was FIRST kicked around on June 5, 1963 at the Cotez Hotel in El Paso. Earlier that day, Kennedy had spoken at the Air Force Academy in CO and afterwards had stopped in El Paso to meet with VP Johnson and Gov. Connolly about “a trip in the fall”. At the meeting, the three agreed that Kennedy would come to TEXAS sometime late in November 1963. The original plan was for Kennedy to spend ONE day in TX and do a whirlwind tour of the state visiting Dallas, Fort Worth, San Antonio and Houston.
It wasn’t until September that the WH permitted an extended trip to Texas which would run from the afternoon of November 21 thru the evening of November 22. Although the exact DETAILS regarding exactly where the president would go during those two days was NOT settled at this time the WH announced the trip publicly. (This is what I said in my previous post).
On October 4, Gov Connolly called the WH to discuss the details of this trip and it was during this phone call that it was agreed that Gov Connolly was to PLAN the events for this trip. It was also agreed upon that if a motorcade was to be used (and the consensus on that call was that if time permitted they wanted to have one) that the SS would plan the route.
On November 4, for the FIRST TIME, the two SS agents in charge of advanced prep for this TEXAS trip (Winston Lawson and Forrest Sorrels) were advised of the trip.
On November 8 Lawson received a TENTATIVE schedule for the ENTIRE Texas trip. No details such as a motorcade route, location for the luncheon, etc were established yet.
It wasn’t until November 14 that the Trade Mart was chosen as the site for the luncheon. Now that a luncheon site had been chosen the SS could now plan a motorcade route.
Lawson and Sorrels were now tasked with establishing a motorcade route that could be completed in the allotted time of 45 minutes (remember they had lots of scheduled events so they had to stay on schedule). On November 15, the 2 SS agents met with Dallas police chief Curry, Asst Chief Batchelor, Deputy chief Fisher AND several other command command officers to discuss details of the motorcade and possible routes. During this meeting, the police officials agreed that the route set forth by the 2 SS agents was the proper one and they did not suggest any other potential routes. (That’s a lot of people, not just one, signing off on this route).
On November 18, the 2 SS agents along with several of the police officials at that meeting actually drove the route to be sure it could be finished within the 45 minute allotted time. Once verified that all was good with the route the 2 SS agents notified the WH of the FINAL route for the motorcade. This is literally days before the president was shot and killed.
A quick side note here. Main st was chosen for the motorcade route rather than elm st (which runs parallel to main) because main st offered better vantage points for spectators. Also, the elm st approach to stemmons freeway was chosen because it was the most direct route to the trade mart and avoided the concrete barriers that were in place that prevented a right turn from main st onto stemmons freeway. (I previously posted a video which showed those concrete barriers).
The motorcade route was published for the FIRST TIME in the Dallas newspaper the next day, November 19. (Kennedy was shot and killed 4 days later).
That’s a lot of detail. Why is that important? If factions of the government were in a conspiracy to kill Kennedy they only had DAYS to plot, prepare and travel to Dealey plaza to shoot Kennedy bc even the guys planning the motorcade route didn’t finalize it till then. More importantly, how would these conspirators know to even involve Oswald (either as a co-conspirator or a patsy) until they knew the motorcade route would pass right by his job? At BEST these conspirators MAY have had more time if 1) the person who chose the trade mart as the luncheon site was one of them or 2) one or both of these SS agents who chose the actual motorcade route were one of them but even then they only had an extra week or so to plan all this and either involve Oswald or set up a scenario to set him up.
I just don’t see it. Even if these “death squads” (as @batchaps4me joked about earlier) existed there’s no time to set up Oswald to take the fall.
These are the types of details that the book goes into. Conspiracy theorists are long on stories but short on details. As the saying goes, the devil is in the details. Conspiracy theorists will point to “problems” with the official version (magic bullet, head movement, etc) but I think explaining how they planned and executed a conspiracy this big, involving this many people, in such a short time, where nobody got caught, no evidence of any forensics was left behind AND nobody has ever talked is the bigger “problem” to explain. @Nosferatu posted something about if two people know a secret the only way to keep that secret is to kill one of them as a reason for Ruby to kill Oswald. Well, what about all the people who would need to be involved in THIS secret?
If people are truly passionate about this subject I recommend the book. It’s got great detail. It by no means has all the answers but, for me at least, it answered more questions than it raised… a lot more.
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So, Oswald just got lucky that the motorcade passed by the Schoolbook Depository? He filled out his application October 15th so he worked there a month. Who do you think had input on the route? How long do you think it takes to set this up, once you have the basic plan down it's all just choosing locations.
I've never understood people talking about how many people would have to keep this a secret, like they believe the government has never done anything shady, you talk you die mysteriously, some people have spoken up and they were either called conspiracy theorists or ignored completely.
Thanks for the feedback. I zonked out quick last night so this has been answered before I can reply.
I concur with the links shared. It’s not occipital bone. Because it doesn’t have telltale signs of being it, and also the back of his skull wasn’t blown out.
Doctor Baden type?
Come on, man. I’ll give you anything that’s directly from Dr Baden. I don’t think his expert opinions are flawed, but I understand how some would.
But, is anyone with such experience who backs single shooter going to be a Baden type as well now?
Well laid out. These are all the facts. Right on Houston, left on Elm was planned just that way because you don’t take an entire motorcade (not just the principal subjects, but all the trailing cars, including buses) down a route the includes a u-turn near/under and overpass. You see that challenge and you see the two parallel streets to main running down to the same freeway and overpass, and you see Elm has the direct route onto the Stemmons that takes you direct to the Trade Mart.
This is why I can’t buy “right on Houston, left on Elm” as a component of the conspiracy.
Also, well pointed out on the relatively tight planning on this trip. The Trade Mart was a pretty late pick. This wasn’t all on the books for months.
It’s not elegant to say that Oswald just lucked into this opportunity. It doesn’t level up with the outcome. It’s the biggest piece that put me on conspiracies for years. But, it’s where the evidence points. Ruth Paine got him the job. Her neighbors son worked there (Buell Frazier….who became the one that drove Oswald into the office) and had recently been hired. She called the depository to inquire. This is all sourced out.
Once plans were fully laid out and announced he knew he was in a place to have a chance. Everything about his backstory says he was going to take that chance.
Without falling all over yourself at trying to defend the official story think about it. Oswald just happen to be lucky enough to get a job a month before at a place the President would just happen to drive by in the motorcade.
October 15th - Oswald interviews for the job at the Texas Schoolbook Depository and starts working the following day.
October 31st - President Kennedy is asked at a press conference about rumors that Johnson will be dumped in 1964 as his running mate.
November 7th - Jerry Bruno types out a proposed schedule for the Texas trip, which includes the Women's Building as the site for the Dallas luncheon
November 15th - The White House announces that the Dallas Trade Mart will be the site of President Kennedy's luncheon address and there will be a motorcade through downtown Dallas. Until that point, there had been speculation in the news media that Kennedy's tight schedule in Texas would not allow enough time for a motorcade through Dallas.
So Oswald in fact "just got lucky" that the motorcade would drive right by his place of employment, wow he should have purchased a lottery ticket!
I included the October 31st line just to show that pretty much everyone knew Kennedy and Johnson did not like each other. Matter of fact Kennedy did not want Johnson to be his running mate, he asked out of politeness never imagining Johnson would accept.
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im running around a bit today so I can’t respond fully (sorry). For now I’ll say this: these details didn’t just happen. There was much planning and debate over just about all of them. The location for the luncheon was the centerpiece of this trip! It wasn’t just gonna be left in the hands of one person. The location of the luncheon wasn’t “manipulated” by some shadowy figure in the government just so a motorcade could THEN be planned to take Kennedy by the TSBD. Wanna know how the Trade mart was chosen as the luncheon site? Here, read for yourself…
The White House designated an advance man named Jerry Bruno to coordinate the Texas trip. There was a split in the Texas Democratic Party between the liberal minority, led by U.S. senator Ralph Yarborough, and Connally’s conservative majority. Connally wanted to make sure that he controlled the itinerary for the presidential visit. When Bruno came to Texas, on October 29, he met with both factions. The sharpest dissension was over the location of the Dallas luncheon. The Yarborough camp suggested that it be held in the Women’s Building, a massive exhibition hall on the state fairgrounds. Connally insisted that it take place in the Grand Courtyard of the Dallas Trade Mart, a smaller venue, and that it be by invitation only. Bruno was taken aback by Connally’s intransigence about the location. The governor told Bruno that Kennedy could not come to Dallas unless the event was held at the trade mart.
In the end Connally prevailed, and the luncheon was scheduled for noon on November 22, under the sponsorship of the powerful Dallas Citizens Council, a group of business leaders, and two other organizations affiliated with it, the Dallas Assembly and the Science Research Center.
Guest of Honor
The dishes, glassware, and silver that John F. Kennedy never got to use.
www.google.com
As you can see Connolly INSISTED on the Trade Mart being the location for the luncheon. This is the same Connolly who was IN the limo when the president got shot. Are people really suggesting that he was part of the conspiracy too?
Lastly, I’m not just here to “defend” the official version. I’m here stating facts. Facts which have to be accounted for in any conspiracy theory. They just can’t be ignored.
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im running around a bit today so I can’t respond fully (sorry). For now I’ll say this: these details didn’t just happen. There was much planning and debate over just about all of them. The location for the luncheon was the centerpiece of this trip! It wasn’t just gonna be left in the hands of one person. The location of the luncheon wasn’t “manipulated” by some shadowy figure in the government just so a motorcade could THEN be planned to take Kennedy by the TSBD. Wanna know how the Trade mart was chosen as the luncheon site? Here, read for yourself…
The White House designated an advance man named Jerry Bruno to coordinate the Texas trip. There was a split in the Texas Democratic Party between the liberal minority, led by U.S. senator Ralph Yarborough, and Connally’s conservative majority. Connally wanted to make sure that he controlled the itinerary for the presidential visit. When Bruno came to Texas, on October 29, he met with both factions. The sharpest dissension was over the location of the Dallas luncheon. The Yarborough camp suggested that it be held in the Women’s Building, a massive exhibition hall on the state fairgrounds. Connally insisted that it take place in the Grand Courtyard of the Dallas Trade Mart, a smaller venue, and that it be by invitation only. Bruno was taken aback by Connally’s intransigence about the location. The governor told Bruno that Kennedy could not come to Dallas unless the event was held at the trade mart.
In the end Connally prevailed, and the luncheon was scheduled for noon on November 22, under the sponsorship of the powerful Dallas Citizens Council, a group of business leaders, and two other organizations affiliated with it, the Dallas Assembly and the Science Research Center.
Guest of Honor
The dishes, glassware, and silver that John F. Kennedy never got to use.
As you can see Connolly INSISTED on the Trade Mart being the location for the luncheon. This is the same Connolly who was IN the limo when the president got shot. Are people really suggesting he was part of the conspiracy too?
I never said anything about Connally. I don't need to read any of that I know why it was chosen, they originally thought it was to dangerous that's why it wasn't chosen from the beginning.
You seem to be posting about things that I never said.
October 29th - Jerry Bruno tells Connally that he welcomes his input and suggestions, but that the final decisions on the itinerary will be made by the White House.
Again I never implicated Connally, funny thing but it seems unlikely he would put himself in the line of fire.
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if you know why it was chosen then tell me.
October 31, 1963: Bruno visits two other potential luncheon sites, the Dallas Memorial Auditorium, which he deems too large, and the Graduate Research Center of the Southwest, which he believes would be too far out of town and thus impractical. He is also informed that Governor Connally is unhappy with the decision not to use the Trade Mart for the luncheon because of the catwalk issue. Bruno agrees to visit the Trade Mart again but still has misgivings. Connally telephones that he has met with the TCU Board of Regents and that they will not confer an honorary degree on the president. Bruno is now faced with two holes in the schedule, Fort Worth and Dallas. One last place is suggested as a luncheon possibility, the Women's Building (now known as the Women's Museum) at the fairgrounds at Fair Park.
November 1, 1963: Bruno returns to Washington, D.C. with the Dallas luncheon site location still undecided. The Fort Worth visit is eventually resolved when the city's chamber of commerce agrees to sponsor a breakfast for the president. Because of this, the president's overnight stay is changed from Houston to Fort Worth so that he will have time to attend the breakfast.
November 5, 1963: Bruno visits the White House and has separate meetings with Kenneth O'Donnell, Gerald Behn and Walter Jenkins. It is decided that the Trade Mart poses too great a security risk, and the Women's Building is chosen as the Dallas luncheon site.
November 7, 1963: Bruno types out a proposed schedule for the Texas trip, which includes the Women's Building as the site for the Dallas luncheon
November 13, 1963: Jack Puterbaugh and White House Secret Service agent Winston Lawson, along with Dallas Secret Service agents Forrest Sorrels and Robert Steuart, visit the office of Robert B. Cullum, president of the Dallas Chamber of Commerce, to discuss plans for the Kennedy visit. They reexamine the Trade Mart and the Women's Building and meet with representatives of the Trade Mart
November 14, 1963: Acquiescing to the wishes of Governor Connally, Kenneth O'Donnell reverses his prior decision to hold the Dallas luncheon at the Women's Building and changes the location to the Dallas Trade Mart. According to both O'Donnell and Bruno, this change in the luncheon site, although seemingly insignificant at the time, dramatically alters the motorcade route taken through Dallas
November 15, 1963: The White House announces that the Dallas Trade Mart will be the site of President Kennedy's luncheon address and there will be a motorcade through downtown Dallas. Until that point, there had been speculation in the news media that Kennedy's tight schedule in Texas would not allow enough time for a motorcade through Dallas
November 1, 1963: Bruno returns to Washington, D.C. with the Dallas luncheon site location still undecided. The Fort Worth visit is eventually resolved when the city's chamber of commerce agrees to sponsor a breakfast for the president. Because of this, the president's overnight stay is changed from Houston to Fort Worth so that he will have time to attend the breakfast.
November 5, 1963: Bruno visits the White House and has separate meetings with Kenneth O'Donnell, Gerald Behn and Walter Jenkins. It is decided that the Trade Mart poses too great a security risk, and the Women's Building is chosen as the Dallas luncheon site.
November 7, 1963: Bruno types out a proposed schedule for the Texas trip, which includes the Women's Building as the site for the Dallas luncheon
November 13, 1963: Jack Puterbaugh and White House Secret Service agent Winston Lawson, along with Dallas Secret Service agents Forrest Sorrels and Robert Steuart, visit the office of Robert B. Cullum, president of the Dallas Chamber of Commerce, to discuss plans for the Kennedy visit. They reexamine the Trade Mart and the Women's Building and meet with representatives of the Trade Mart
November 14, 1963: Acquiescing to the wishes of Governor Connally, Kenneth O'Donnell reverses his prior decision to hold the Dallas luncheon at the Women's Building and changes the location to the Dallas Trade Mart. According to both O'Donnell and Bruno, this change in the luncheon site, although seemingly insignificant at the time, dramatically alters the motorcade route taken through Dallas
November 15, 1963: The White House announces that the Dallas Trade Mart will be the site of President Kennedy's luncheon address and there will be a motorcade through downtown Dallas. Until that point, there had been speculation in the news media that Kennedy's tight schedule in Texas would not allow enough time for a motorcade through Dallas
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Let me add more about the decision making process for the luncheon site being chosen AND who was involved. Here…
On November 4, Gerald A. Behn, agent in charge of the White House detail, asked Sorrels to examine three potential sites for the luncheon. One building, Market Hall, was unavailable for November 22. The second, the Women's Building at the State Fair Grounds, was a one-story building with few entrances and easy to make secure, but it lacked necessary food-handling facilities and had certain unattractive features, including a low ceiling with exposed conduits and beams. The third possibility, the Trade Mart, a handsome new building with all the necessary facilities, presented security problems. It had numerous entrances, several tiers of balconies surrounding the central court where the luncheon would be held, and several catwalks crossing the court at each level. On November 4, Sorrels told Behn he believed security difficulties at the Trade Mart could be overcome by special precautions. Lawson also evaluated the security hazards at the Trade Mart on November 13.28 Kenneth O'Donnell made the final decision to hold the luncheon at the Trade Mart; Behn so notified Lawson on November 14.
www.archives.gov
Again, there’s no shadowy figure in the government making this decision. The people involved are all documented. They are either involved in the conspiracy or they are lying about what they did in choosing the venue.
On November 4, Gerald A. Behn, agent in charge of the White House detail, asked Sorrels to examine three potential sites for the luncheon. One building, Market Hall, was unavailable for November 22. The second, the Women's Building at the State Fair Grounds, was a one-story building with few entrances and easy to make secure, but it lacked necessary food-handling facilities and had certain unattractive features, including a low ceiling with exposed conduits and beams. The third possibility, the Trade Mart, a handsome new building with all the necessary facilities, presented security problems. It had numerous entrances, several tiers of balconies surrounding the central court where the luncheon would be held, and several catwalks crossing the court at each level. On November 4, Sorrels told Behn he believed security difficulties at the Trade Mart could be overcome by special precautions. Lawson also evaluated the security hazards at the Trade Mart on November 13.28 Kenneth O'Donnell made the final decision to hold the luncheon at the Trade Mart; Behn so notified Lawson on November 14.
Chapter 2
Chapter 2: The Assassination Introduction Planning the Texas Trip Advance Preparations for the Dallas TripPreventive Intelligence Activities The Luncheon Site The Motorcade RouteDallas Before the Visit Visits to Other Texas Cities Arrival at Love Field Organization of the Motorcade The Drive...
www.archives.gov
Again, there’s no shadowy figure in the government making this decision. The people involved are all documented. They are either involved in the conspiracy or they are lying about what they did in choosing the venue.
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see my link… behn asked sorrels to examine the sites. Sorrels told Behn that the Woman’s building did not have the food handling facilities.
It would help if you also linked where you are getting your info. I’m linking where I am getting mine.
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im not saying you’re making it up. I’d like to see where it’s coming from. Is it sworn testimony? Is the person reliable? Where are they getting their info?
not sure why you are so defensive about this. I’m not trying to change your mind or “win”. It’s a discussion.
This is what you aren't understanding. I don't believe there was either. There didn't need to be, the hit was going to happen no matter where they went.