What If JFK Wasn’t a Conspiracy

[White Knight]

Why don't you go find ya some shit to lie about to strangers on the internet?

 

[White Knight]

Set a precedent.


Buck the system, and we'll kill your ass on TV, and people will still be debating who dun it 60 years after.

 

[Rex Racer]

I also agree with this and with what @Orlando_Eagles said about it. Each witness must be taken on their own and assessed. That’s not to say cherry pick them but simply evaluate each one on their own merits.

What do you think happened that day? How many shooters? How many shots?

Multiple shooters, LHO was a patsy for some other "entity" and did not land the kill shot to the head and the Warren Commission seemed more of a cover-up than a thorough investigation. Other than that

 

[Nosferatu]

The point on the photos I would need to think about some. But, here is something that irks me with theorists (and I don’t lay it heavily with Hurt, who I don’t see doing it purposefully here).

The Doctor attending most to the President in the emergency room is certainly a most credible witness, right? That just seems basic logic. Until you listen to all the doctors that were there that day.

Finely trained people with excellent skill and a sharp eye, no doubt. But also humans who literally went from a sleepy quiet emergency room to all hell breaking loose instantly. Carrico also mentioned he faltered for a moment when the President was lain in front of him. Shock took him for a few moments. Who could blame him.

They had a complete mess to try to decipher. They admit themselves that in the rush to establish and stabilize vitals they were really only seeing the head wound. They hadn’t turned him over to check. They did see the neck wound of course, and in hindsight they have said that should give pause in what you were assessing. But….again….their job is to try to stabilize the patient ASAP. They walked right past the neck wound, and even cut through it to set a tube in to get him oxygen, further marring the front neck wound for future analysis.

IIRC correctly Carrico was at his head and reported in the moment only knowing about the head wound.

Feel free to bash me on speculation, but I’m doing it as little as possible, and basing it on accounts the attending doctors gave. What they reported post treatment, with the heat of the moment still bleeding off came be given some leeway for accuracy IMO.

It’s when these credible professionals had time to reflect on it all that their input matters most to me. Yes, I’m away that “time to reflect” can also be “time to threaten and manipulate”…. I just don’t believe that happened here with the attending doctors.

I do believe it was the case that the naval doctors that did the autopsy was manipulated, just not by CIA or some other conspiracy. They were manipulated by the Kennedy’s trying to rush the autopsy.

I'm not here to bash you, this isn't a me against you conversation. We all have our own ideas what happened that day but one thing you'll never convince me of is the magic bullet, how did a bullet that struck the President 5 - 6 inches below his neck line at that angle come out his neck above the tie knot. Just about every single person you could ever listen to or has written about this agrees if the magic bullet theory is wrong then there had to be a second shooter. Every thing else I have posted is someones thoughts or opinions or some of my own. It's not up to me to determine a killer. Shit I have read reports that Oswald was directed to place the gun upstairs with the casings and leave. There has been so much misinformation it's hard to believe anything at this point. One thing I do know is that, that bullet didn't enter his back and come out his neck and that's enough for me to know it wasn't Oswald acting alone.

 

[DraftNerd]

Multiple shooters, LHO was a patsy for some other "entity" and did not land the kill shot to the head and the Warren Commission seemed more of a cover-up than a thorough investigation. Other than that

Seemed more of a cover up….or flawed since the commissions ability to do due diligence was decapitated by a President seeking to win an election?

I know….po-tay-to / po-tah-to.

 

[Nosferatu]

What do you think happened that day? How many shooters? How many shots?

You keep asking this and it's still irrelevant. It doesn't matter what our opinions are or how many shooters we think there are all that matters is the story we were given is not possible.

 

[DraftNerd]

I'm not here to bash you, this isn't a me against you conversation. We all have our own ideas what happened that day but one thing you'll never convince me of is the magic bullet, how did a bullet that struck the President 5 - 6 inches below his neck line at that angle come out his neck above the tie knot. Just about every single person you could ever listen to or has written about this agrees if the magic bullet theory is wrong then there had to be a second shooter. Every thing else I have posted is someones thoughts or opinions or some of my own. It's not up to me to determine a killer. Shit I have read reports that Oswald was directed to place the gun upstairs with the casings and leave. There has been so much misinformation it's hard to believe anything at this point. One thing I do know is that, that bullet didn't enter his back and come out his neck and that's enough for me to know it wasn't Oswald acting alone.

As I read this book, or any other books I’ve read on this I kept coming back to how it’s all competing narrative and misinformation like the climate today.

I think the question on the location of the wound on Kennedy’s back is a key point. I believe what you shared for a autopsy diagram was from the Select Committee? Whatever the case, there was at least one point where the person drawing the diagrams like this wasn’t drawing them from their own experience, but second hand from what others input was. That creates the chance for a extremely critical piece to be wrong.

I agree that if the shot was lower on his back it’s troublesome to that shot coming from behind and six stories up. But, I also remember the magic bullet theory was at least as troublesome. And it’s been explained to my satisfaction.

 

[DraftNerd]

You keep asking this and it's still irrelevant. It doesn't matter what our opinions are or how many shooters we think there are all that matters is the story we were given is not possible.

Ok. For my simple sensibilities would it be fair to say all you know for certain is that the official story is bullshit?

 

[Nosferatu]

You’ve made it very clear that you don’t believe either of the official versions. What do you believe happened?

The CIA was working with the mob to get rid of Castro so there was some connection already, when Dulles was fired as CIA director he did not take it well and the establishment was tired of the Kennedy brothers. The thought of a possible 5 more years of Jack and then maybe Bobby was too much for them. It's also not a secret the mob was furious with Jack thinking he got the Presidency and turned his back on them and with Bobby going after them it all just came together.

 

[Rex Racer]

Seemed more of a cover up….or flawed since the commissions ability to do due diligence was decapitated by a President seeking to win an election?

I know….po-tay-to / po-tah-to.

Joseph Kennedy had political power that was probably unrivaled by any other un-elected American at that time and his shady dealings in the (mob connected) business world surely gave him many enemies as well. The fact that the family was able to influence the investigation(s) starting with squelching the autopsy report and the continued censoring of information afterwards certainly begs the question of whether this was a hit by Mob because they were pissed that Joseph hadn't reigned in his sons. Remember that RFK was the Attorney General in the JFK administration and he was hot on the tails of organized crime at the time. The fact that he was assassinated 5 years later would appear to tie it all together, but that is just me day dreaming about some more conspiracy theories

 

[Rex Racer]

The CIA was working with the mob to get rid of Castro so there was some connection already, when Dulles was fired as CIA director he did not take it well and the establishment was tired of the Kennedy brothers. The thought of a possible 5 more years of Jack and then maybe Bobby was too much for them. It's also not a secret the mob was furious with Jack thinking he got the Presidency and turned his back on them and with Bobby going after them it all just came together.

You stole my thunder a bit but at least I'm not the only crack pot that thinks this way

 

[dbldwn711]

You keep asking this and it's still irrelevant. It doesn't matter what our opinions are or how many shooters we think there are all that matters is the story we were given is not possible.

ok man. I won’t ask again. I don’t think it’s irrelevant but you do and that’s all that matters.

We all come at this thing from our own perspective. Mine is I studied this A LOT in HS so it sparked a curiosity in the subject for me that I still have. For decades I was convinced that it was a conspiracy. I thought it was the government working with the mafia. I didn’t think it was the Cubans or Russians. I thought Oswald acted but not alone.

However, after I read case closed (and I know you’ve told me in the past you haven’t read it) ALL of my long held beliefs of a conspiracy went away. For me, the book exposed that for each piece of evidence there was a logical explanation that “fit”. The book exposed for me that if you dig deep enough each “fact” that a conspiracy theorists relies upon can either be explained with actual evidence and/or it’s just not true.

Now, my approach is to find some fact/theory, in fact ANY fact or theory, that I CAN’T explain. In other words, I WANT to find something that will call into question Posners beliefs that LHO acted alone. It’s why I’m asking you “what you think” and it’s why I’m asking (again) for this link/theory regarding no blood at the Oswald shooting crime scene or in the ambulance. As I said, last night, that’s a new one on me.

Since you won’t give me your “theory” (and I won’t ask again) how about the details you have about this blood issue? 15 pints of blood? Honestly, I can’t find anything about that and I’ve looked. Where did that come from?

 

[Nosferatu]

how about the details you have about this blood issue? 15 pints of blood? Honestly, I can’t find anything about that and I’ve looked. Where did that come from?

I don't remember where I got that from, it seemed odd to me as well. Just found it in some old notes I have.

 

[dbldwn711]

The CIA was working with the mob to get rid of Castro so there was some connection already, when Dulles was fired as CIA director he did not take it well and the establishment was tired of the Kennedy brothers. The thought of a possible 5 more years of Jack and then maybe Bobby was too much for them. It's also not a secret the mob was furious with Jack thinking he got the Presidency and turned his back on them and with Bobby going after them it all just came together.

thx

FWIW that’s almost exactly what I believed for decades. Literally almost word for word. In fact, I was typing my post SBs when I finished I saw yours.

however, after reading case closed I’m absolutely convinced that while there is certainly a lot of smoke there… I just don’t see a fire.

I know what you gave me was broad strokes. I appreciate it. I won’t ask for details but please don’t get frustrated if I ask others for theirs. I’m looking for a discussion about the evidence and how it potentially fits together.

 

[dbldwn711]

I don't remember where I got that from, it seemed odd to me as well. Just found it in some old notes I have.

ok. Thx.

I’m looking up some stuff on that issue and when I feel I’ve got my arms around it I’ll address it. Of course, you are free to jump on me about it. Haha

 

[dbldwn711]

Multiple shooters, LHO was a patsy for some other "entity" and did not land the kill shot to the head and the Warren Commission seemed more of a cover-up than a thorough investigation. Other than that

ok. Thx.

like @Nosferatu these are really broad strokes. Do you have any more specific thoughts? How many shots each shooter made? Did Oswald fire any shots or was he completely set up? Etc

FWIW, your thoughts stated in the part I quoted were essentially my thoughts for decades. After reading the book the OP cited I no longer have them.

 

[broncosmitty]

The Warren Commission (WC) said that JFK had a wound of entrance at the base of his neck. The House Select Committee on Assassinations (HSCA), based on an analysis of disputed autopsy x-rays and photos, moved the wound about two inches downward. However, the evidence indicates this alleged "neck wound" was actually five to six inches below the neck, considerably lower than where the WC, and quite possibly a little lower than where the HSCA located it.

Clearly, the back wound's placement is vital because it foundationally concerns the single-bullet theory; and if the single-bullet theory is wrong, then there had to be more than one gunman firing at President Kennedy. According to this theory, a bullet (often referred to as the "magic bullet") struck JFK near or on the neck, exited his throat, and then went on to cause all of Governor John Connally's extensive injuries. Without the single-bullet hypothesis, there can be no lone-gunman scenario.

Just what is the evidence that the bullet in question struck the President at least five inches down in the back, and not in or near the neck?

* The holes in JFK's shirt and coat place the wound five to six inches below the collar line. The claim that his coat and shirt were hunched up on his back when the bullet struck in such a way as to make the proposed higher back wound line up with the clothing holes is not only far-fetched, but, in my opinion, is refuted by the photographic evidence, as even lone-gunman theorist Jim Moore concedes. This bunched-clothing theory will be dealt with at greater length further on in this article.

* Dr. Boswell's autopsy face sheet diagram shows the wound five to six inches below the neck. That face sheet, by the way, was marked "verified."

* The President's death certificate places the wound at the third thoracic vertebra, which corresponds to the holes in the coat and shirt. This document was also marked "verified."

* Dr. John Ebersole, who got a look at the back wound during the autopsy, said the wound was near the fourth thoracic vertebra (63:721). This is even slightly lower than where the death certificate places the wound.

* Secret Service agent Clint Hill, who was called to the morgue for the specific purpose of viewing Kennedy's wounds, said the entrance point was "about six inches below the neckline to the right-hand side of the spinal column" (18:77-78). Hill's placement of the wound corresponds closely to the location of the holes in the President's shirt and coat.

* The FBI's 9 December 1963 report on the autopsy, which was based on the report of two FBI agents who attended the autopsy (James Sibert and Francis O'Neill), located the wound below the shoulder (i.e., below the top of the shoulder blade) (18:83, 149-168).

* Three Navy medical technicians who assisted with the autopsy, James Jenkins, Paul O'Connor, and Edward Reed, have stated that the wound was well below the neck. Jenkins and O'Connor have also reported that it was probed repeatedly and that the autopsy doctors determined that it had no point of exit (10:260, 262, 302-303; 63:720).

* Floyd Riebe, one of the photographers who took pictures at the autopsy, recalls that the back wound was probed and that it was well below the neck (10:162-163, 302).

* Former Bethesda lab assistant Jan Gail Rudnicki, who was present for much of the autopsy, says the wound was "several inches down on the back" (10:206).

The correct placement of the back wound destroys the single-bullet theory. Given the fact that the bullet entered JFK's back at a sharply downward angle, and at a point five to six inches below the neck (and thus well down on the back), there is no way it could have exited his throat, unless perhaps if it struck bone, but the chief autopsy doctor said he found no evidence that the missile had done so, and the HSCA's own medical panel agreed (69:272; 8:328; 6 HSCA 56). The only other way the missile could have exited Kennedy's throat is if JFK had been leaning far forward when the bullet struck. But photos show that the President was sitting more or less upright before the bullet hit him in the back. The Select Committee's own trajectory consultant said that Kennedy was leaning forward by no more than 18 degrees when the bullet struck.

 

[DraftNerd]

thx

FWIW that’s almost exactly what I believed for decades. Literally almost word for word. In fact, I was typing my post SBs when I finished I saw yours.

however, after reading case closed I’m absolutely convinced that while there is certainly a lot of smoke there… I just don’t see a fire.

I know what you gave me was broad strokes. I appreciate it. I won’t ask for details but please don’t get frustrated if I ask others for theirs. I’m looking for a discussion about the evidence and how it potentially fits together.

 

[broncosmitty]

View attachment 36923

Six stories up, 280 feet away…

He would’ve had to be reaching down towards his feet that split second the limo goes behind the road sign on the Zapruder Film. Or the Warren Commission was just a sham. One or the other.

 

[White Knight]

View attachment 36924
Six stories up, 280 feet away…

He would’ve had to be reaching down towards his feet that split second the limo goes behind the road sign on the Zapruder Film. Or the Warren Commission was just a sham. One or the other.

keep your tin foil hat on smitty.