What If JFK Wasn’t a Conspiracy

Orlando_Eagles said:
Do you think it’s possible he was in a hunch when that shot came in?
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Maybe. There aren’t any known/available photos of the moment. (They may exist, not all of the WC is public still.).

But the “evidence” tWC used was intentionally inaccurate
 
dbldwn711 said:
but you do think Kennedy and Connelly were injured by the same bullet just not the actual bullet recovered, right?
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They could have been hit by the same bullet.

But I do not believe the particular bullet “found” at Parkland passed through two bodies.
 
broncosmitty said:
They could have been hit by the same bullet.

But I do not believe the particular bullet “found” at Parkland passed through two bodies.
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ok… I’ll come back to the first part later. For now, lets talk about the bullet that was “Found” as you say.

you clearly think it was planted. What’s the purpose of planting that bullet? Youve already said that you believe Oswald fired at least one shot and was thus involved. Planting a bullet from his gun wouldn’t be necessary because, as you’ve already said, he fired at least one (Maybe more) bullets from his gun so there is already evidence of his involvement. There’s no need to plant MORE evidence of his involvement. In fact, by doing so you could actually undermine his involvement because what if the planted evidence doesn’t match up with ballistics (Which ironically is exactly what you’re saying here).

why plant the bullet?
 
dbldwn711 said:
ok… I’ll come back to the first part later. For now, lets talk about the bullet that was “Found” as you say.

you clearly think it was planted. What’s the purpose of planting that bullet? Youve already said that you believe Oswald fired at least one shot and was thus involved. Planting a bullet from his gun wouldn’t be necessary because, as you’ve already said, he fired at least one (Maybe more) bullets from his gun so there is already evidence of his involvement. There’s no need to plant MORE evidence of his involvement. In fact, by doing so you could actually undermine his involvement because what if the planted evidence doesn’t match up with ballistics (Which ironically is exactly what you’re saying here).

why plant the bullet?
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Not to mention it’s not a “pristine” bullet planted. It’s been fired. Maybe not through two men. But, it’s been fired.

I don’t get why that would be planted then. It actually begs more for a conspiracy than frames Oswald.
 
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dbldwn711 said:
ok… I’ll come back to the first part later. For now, lets talk about the bullet that was “Found” as you say.

you clearly think it was planted. What’s the purpose of planting that bullet? Youve already said that you believe Oswald fired at least one shot and was thus involved. Planting a bullet from his gun wouldn’t be necessary because, as you’ve already said, he fired at least one (Maybe more) bullets from his gun so there is already evidence of his involvement. There’s no need to plant MORE evidence of his involvement. In fact, by doing so you could actually undermine his involvement because what if the planted evidence doesn’t match up with ballistics (Which ironically is exactly what you’re saying here).

why plant the bullet?
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No bullet, no evidence.

Civilians weren’t much involved in any investigation after the fact. (Oswald wasn’t arrested for assassinating the President. He was arrested by local police for shooting a local police.). The autopsy was done by the military. The public did not get to see evidence, even the Zapruder film for over a decade. I doubt high up federal officials would worry about prying eyes. There really weren’t any.
 
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If this was the view according to when the first shot is fired. (Zapruder film frame z190) Why would you take this shot?
 
Orlando_Eagles said:
Not to mention it’s not a “pristine” bullet planted. It’s been fired. Maybe not through two men.

I don’t get why that would be planted then. It actually begs more for a conspiracy than frames Oswald.
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thats what im saying. If it’s planted it’s done so to MAKE Oswald look guilty but you only do that if he didn’t actually fire a shot. You only do that if he actually is a “patsy” in the truest sense of the word.

For me, there’s two camps for people who believe that the killing of Kennedy was a conspiracy. The first is the person who just looks at all these various theories and says “look at all these theories (Mob, cia, SS, FBI, Russians, Cubans, etc). With this many questions there just can’t be any way oswald did it alone.“. These people will just keep throwing ”evidence“ at you and it’s tough to have a dialogue. It’s not impossible… but it’s tough.

The second camp are the people that ascribe to ONE theory. I’m not saying they just pick one idea and ride or die with it. There can certainly be overlap. You can certainly think that some faction of the government (fbi, SS, cia) teamed up with a different group (mob, russians, Cubans) and did something together but you’ve gotta dry the line somewhere. You can’t just adopt EVERY idea that comes down the road. If you do, then you are in the first camp.

However, whichever camp you’re in, IMO if you wanna be rational and have a discussion you’ve gotta at least have a view about some of the basics. Things like: How many shooters? Was Oswald actually one of the shooters? How many shots total and how many by each shooter? IMO that’s the minimum. Youve gotta be able to say “I’m not a 100% sure but THIS is what I think”. Otherwise, its nearly impossible to have a meaningful dialogue.

I’ll tell you where I’m at. After studying this thing for most of my adult life I’m pretty convinced that Oswald made three shots on his own from the TSBD. I think the first missed and hit the curb. I think the second was the magic bullet And I think the third was the headshot. I’ve yet to find any credible forensic evidence that would suggest either a second shooter and/or a possible 4th shot. There are questions about that belief for sure. The head movement, the bullet found, etc all are question marks for me. It’s why Im searching for something that I may have missed. It’s not open and shut for me. However, whatever questions I have about those things I have LARGER questions about a second shooter and/or a 4th shot.

For me, the possibility of a conspiracy still exists for me but not in a second shooter but someone who may have worked with Oswald OUTSIDE of those days events. Someone who was a “handler” of sorts. This is why the David ferrie thing intrigues me. It’s a hell of a coincidence that they were in the same civil air patrol and had offices in the same building. Who knows. They may have been involved in something just not murder and probably not the murder of the president. In fact, IF Oswald was working with someone they were probably just looking to do something to someone much smaller (like general walker) and just got lucky that the Presidents motorcade was passing by where he works. I could even buy that connolly was the target not Kennedy but I need SOMETHING to latch onto. Something solid and not just something that sells a book. To date I haven’t found anything. In fact, Ive only found the opposite. oswalds activity leading up to the killing is very unremarkable. No abnormal phone calls. No abnormal meetings. In fact, he has to hitch a ride to work a d RISK BEING EXPOSED while he carries the gun and says “oh… these are curtain rods“. Cmon. If he’s working with someone wouldn’t they just give him a ride or at least arrange for a ride????

For me, if there’s a conspiracy it’s on a much much lower level than everyone is thinking. It’s one or two people with him. I’ll tell ya that the tippet killing has always intrigued me as well. That was bizarre. Oswald just shot the President then walks home? Why go home? You know they are gonna be looking for you. Then he leaves and starts walking and just happens to find Tippet? Tippet a career beat cop. He’s not looking to be a hero. People saw Oswald talking to him before he shot him. Was tippet his contact and the meet went bad? I can certainly by that more than a second shooter. Again, though, where’s the evidence. Where’s the connection?

Maybe this is just me not wanting to admit that i had it wrong all those years? Maybe I’m just holding out hope that I’ll find something. I know this much… I haven’t found it yet.
 
broncosmitty said:
No bullet, no evidence.

Civilians weren’t much involved in any investigation after the fact. (Oswald wasn’t arrested for assassinating the President. He was arrested by local police for shooting a local police.). The autopsy was done by the military. The public did not get to see evidence, even the Zapruder film for over a decade. I doubt high up federal officials would worry about prying eyes. There really weren’t any.
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but how would they know there wouldn’t be any evidence? @Nosferatu mentioned the weight earlier. What if the bodies and the limo had MORE fragments? I mean, he (and others) are making a big deal about this being a tiny bit over. What if by planting that bullet it was a LOT more over? They just couldn’t know any of this at the time they planted that thing.
 
Nosferatu said:
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If this was the view according to when the first shot is fired. (Zapruder film frame z190) Why would you take this shot?
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I’m not of the assumption he logically decided and took this shot. Yes. That is the point of the first shot IMO.

1. I don’t think he was logical at all, and really hadn’t been known to be by any close to him.

2. It’s possible with his nerves he didn’t mean to take this shot but squeezed it off. He might have been tracing through the trees for when they popped out, and he just put too much pressure on the trigger.

I know I said this already and it was pointed out that you don’t often miss the first shot and make the next two. Much less in high pressure. Much less on a moving target.

I get it. I’m astonished he hit on any of them. I’ll say it. But, it’s logically and evidentially what happened.
 
dbldwn711 said:
thats what im saying. If it’s planted it’s done so to MAKE Oswald look guilty but you only do that if he didn’t actually fire a shot. You only do that if he actually is a “patsy” in the truest sense of the word.

For me, there’s two camps for people who believe that the killing of Kennedy was a conspiracy. The first is the person who just looks at all these various theories and says “look at all these theories (Mob, cia, SS, FBI, Russians, Cubans, etc). With this many questions there just can’t be any way oswald did it alone.“. These people will just keep throwing ”evidence“ at you and it’s tough to have a dialogue. It’s not impossible… but it’s tough.

The second camp are the people that ascribe to ONE theory. I’m not saying they just pick one idea and ride or die with it. There can certainly be overlap. You can certainly think that some faction of the government (fbi, SS, cia) teamed up with a different group (mob, russians, Cubans) and did something together but you’ve gotta dry the line somewhere. You can’t just adopt EVERY idea that comes down the road. If you do, then you are in the first camp.

However, whichever camp you’re in, IMO if you wanna be rational and have a discussion you’ve gotta at least have a view about some of the basics. Things like: How many shooters? Was Oswald actually one of the shooters? How many shots total and how many by each shooter? IMO that’s the minimum. Youve gotta be able to say “I’m not a 100% sure but THIS is what I think”. Otherwise, its nearly impossible to have a meaningful dialogue.

I’ll tell you where I’m at. After studying this thing for most of my adult life I’m pretty convinced that Oswald made three shots on his own from the TSBD. I think the first missed and hit the curb. I think the second was the magic bullet And I think the third was the headshot. I’ve yet to find any credible forensic evidence that would suggest either a second shooter and/or a possible 4th shot. There are questions about that belief for sure. The head movement, the bullet found, etc all are question marks for me. It’s why Im searching for something that I may have missed. It’s not open and shut for me. However, whatever questions I have about those things I have LARGER questions about a second shooter and/or a 4th shot.

For me, the possibility of a conspiracy still exists for me but not in a second shooter but someone who may have worked with Oswald OUTSIDE of those days events. Someone who was a “handler” of sorts. This is why the David ferrie thing intrigues me. It’s a hell of a coincidence that they were in the same civil air patrol and had offices in the same building. Who knows. They may have been involved in something just not murder and probably not the murder of the president. In fact, IF Oswald was working with someone they were probably just looking to do something to someone much smaller (like general walker) and just got lucky that the Presidents motorcade was passing by where he works. I could even buy that connolly was the target not Kennedy but I need SOMETHING to latch onto. Something solid and not just something that sells a book. To date I haven’t found anything. In fact, Ive only found the opposite. oswalds activity leading up to the killing is very unremarkable. No abnormal phone calls. No abnormal meetings. In fact, he has to hitch a ride to work a d RISK BEING EXPOSED while he carries the gun and says “oh… these are curtain rods“. Cmon. If he’s working with someone wouldn’t they just give him a ride or at least arrange for a ride????

For me, if there’s a conspiracy it’s on a much much lower level than everyone is thinking. It’s one or two people with him. I’ll tell ya that the tippet killing has always intrigued me as well. That was bizarre. Oswald just shot the President then walks home? Why go home? You know they are gonna be looking for you. Then he leaves and starts walking and just happens to find Tippet? Tippet a career beat cop. He’s not looking to be a hero. People saw Oswald talking to him before he shot him. Was tippet his contact and the meet went bad? I can certainly by that more than a second shooter. Again, though, where’s the evidence. Where’s the connection?

Maybe this is just me not wanting to admit that i had it wrong all those years? Maybe I’m just holding out hope that I’ll find something. I know this much… I haven’t found it yet.
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On Tippit. It doesn’t feel as remarkable to me. The President had just been shot. They were all out there in a daze looking for….something.

After reading up on Oswald I can’t buy that he was just all cool and collected. He went straight home for fuck sakes. He had no solid plan. If you’re a cop out there and a likely assassin(s) is in your city you’re paying attention. So he talked to Oswald. You know Oswald set his spider senses flying. Oswald just beat him on the draw.

With Oswald and Ferrie….are you speaking of the address at 544 Camp Street?

On the conspiracy buff types….I thought one thing was well said in the book. If you merely accept that this creep took out Kennedy you accept that the POTUS died over something so stupid and trivial. If you put Oswald on one scale and Kennedy on the other there is nothing near balance. The mind screams for such balance on such things. A conspiracy, as ugly as it can be, gives much more of that balance that the mind seeks.
 
dbldwn711 said:
but how would they know there wouldn’t be any evidence? @Nosferatu mentioned the weight earlier. What if the bodies and the limo had MORE fragments? I mean, he (and others) are making a big deal about this being a tiny bit over. What if by planting that bullet it was a LOT more over? They just couldn’t know any of this at the time they planted that thing.
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Maybe they did have more fragments.

There’s never been confirmation of any bullet fragment found inside the limo, JFK or the Governor, other than they were similar in metallic composition.
 
Orlando_Eagles said:
On Tippit. It doesn’t feel as remarkable to me. The President had just been shot. They were all out there in a daze looking for….something.

After reading up on Oswald I can’t buy that he was just all cool and collected. He went straight home for fuck sakes. He had no solid plan. If you’re a cop out there and a likely assassin(s) is in your city you’re paying attention. So he talked to Oswald. You know Oswald set his spider senses flying. Oswald just beat him on the draw.

With Oswald and Ferrie….are you speaking of the address at 544 Camp Street?

On the conspiracy buff types….I thought one thing was well said in the book. If you merely accept that this creep took out Kennedy you accept that the POTUS died over something so stupid and trivial. If you put Oswald on one scale and Kennedy on the other there is nothing near balance. The mind screams for such balance on such things. A conspiracy, as ugly as it can be, gives much more of that balance that the mind seeks.
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Every Presidential assassination/attempted assassination has been that aside from Booth. (Who was one part of a very large conspiracy. And was himself famous.)

Leon Czolgosz isn’t a household name. But he was a lone wolf assassin. Admitted he killed President McKinley(wasn’t in question) and didn’t repent.


Charles Guiteau was a lone wolf crazy person when he killed President Garfield. Blamed it on God

John Hinkley was a lone wolf crazy person when he attempted to kill Reagan.

The dude who tried to kill former President Roosevelt was a lone wolf nutsy cookoo who said President McKinley’s ghost told him to get revenge in a dream.

If there is a driving force behind the doubt, aside from the huge WTF examples,(which are the main reason IMO) it’s that Oswald never stood trial.

The others all did, aside from Booth, who was an assassin and conspirator.
 
broncosmitty said:
Every Presidential assassination/attempted assassination has been that aside from Booth. (Who was one part of a very large conspiracy. And was himself famous.)

Leon Czolgosz isn’t a household name. But he was a lone wolf assassin. Admitted he killed President McKinley(wasn’t in question) and didn’t repent.


Charles Guiteau was a lone wolf crazy person when he killed President Garfield. Blamed it on God

John Hinkley was a lone wolf crazy person when he attempted to kill Reagan.

The dude who tried to kill former President Roosevelt was a lone wolf nutsy cookoo who said President McKinley’s ghost told him to get revenge in a dream.

If there is a driving force behind the doubt, aside from the huge WTF examples,(which are the main reason IMO) it’s that Oswald never stood trial.

The others all did, aside from Booth, who was an assassin and conspirator.
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For me the common thread is you have to be nuts to take out the President. Booth and his crew I make some exception due to exceptional times.

I get all the WTF examples. I’ve read up on a lot of them. Used to buy many of them, at least for a bit. Gave up for a little while on it until this book came up.

While I’ve not actively followed this event for a while when I did get off the conspiracy trip I made a deal with myself that this is going to have to pass logical muster with me.

I think Oswald as the sole shooter is bonkers are fuck, but it’s also the most credible theory I’ve found. It won’t ever be solved, but I feel most comfortable with this theory as the landing spot for me.
 
broncosmitty said:
Maybe they did have more fragments.

There’s never been confirmation of any bullet fragment found inside the limo, JFK or the Governor, other than they were similar in metallic composition.
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I believe I read somewhere that they did find fragments in the front floor wells of the limo, but it wasn’t until later with technology that they could tie them to Oswalds bullets.

It feels a little hazy in my memory, so maybe I’m crossing wires. There are so many wires to possibly cross on this case.
 
Orlando_Eagles said:
I believe I read somewhere that they did find fragments in the front floor wells of the limo, but it wasn’t until later with technology that they could tie them to Oswalds bullets.

It feels a little hazy in my memory, so maybe I’m crossing wires. There are so many wires to possibly cross on this case.
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There are a lot links to the late 70’s scientific work concerning the whole thing.

I have managed not to go down that rabbithole, yet.
 
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