I’m all for delving into MKUltra. To me this is only conspiracy in that not everything has been fully owned up to. But, unlike JFK, there is just so much more fact and testimony to what they did here. It’s far more credible as a thing that happened than JFK, which is just fucking bonkers for probably around 1000 reasons.
What If JFK Wasn’t a Conspiracy
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not only that MKUltra had the documents purposely destroyed. Again, is that bc the CIA didn’t want to have to answer for some unscrupulous behavior (ie CYA) or something more sinister.
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Who is the dude talking to Joe? D’you know his name?
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I’m not sure if this is a conspiracy or an abuse of power but IMO what Jim Garrison did to Clay Shaw is just terrible. Clay Shaw was a respected businessman his entire life who had just retired when Garrison charged him with conspiracy to murder Kennedy. That case took two years to go to trial before Shaw was acquitted. A week after the acquittal Shaw was charged with perjury by Garrison and that case took 2 years to resolve. Shaw died a few years later.
There’s been lots of speculation about why Garrison went after Shaw the way he did. The murder trial was considered nothing more than a joke/circus. There wasn’t any real evidence. So why did Garrison go after Shaw? Some think it was due to a argument they had in public where Shaw told Garrison to “behave himself” in front of a room full of people. Others think it was because Shaw was an openly gay man. During the murder investigation a lot was made about Shaws sexuality and they even investigated that killing Kennedy was some sort of homosexual thrill killing. Others speculated that Garrison was himself a closeted gay man and he resented Shaw for living an openly gay life. Garrison was accused and investigated for molesting a 13 year old boy at a NO rec center. The charges went away when the boys parents declined to testify.
It’s ironic that garrisons book would be made into the Stones movie and once again he’s the good doer and Shaw was the evil fag villain. I’ve come to believe that garrisons book has so much bullshit in it that it’s laughable. Stones movie is a bigger joke. Quite possibly the dumbest part of that movie is the Donald Sutherland character. I don’t think Garrison ever met that guy yet he played a prominent role in the film.
IMO that film is responsible for a lot of the bogus conspiracy theories of today.
There’s been lots of speculation about why Garrison went after Shaw the way he did. The murder trial was considered nothing more than a joke/circus. There wasn’t any real evidence. So why did Garrison go after Shaw? Some think it was due to a argument they had in public where Shaw told Garrison to “behave himself” in front of a room full of people. Others think it was because Shaw was an openly gay man. During the murder investigation a lot was made about Shaws sexuality and they even investigated that killing Kennedy was some sort of homosexual thrill killing. Others speculated that Garrison was himself a closeted gay man and he resented Shaw for living an openly gay life. Garrison was accused and investigated for molesting a 13 year old boy at a NO rec center. The charges went away when the boys parents declined to testify.
It’s ironic that garrisons book would be made into the Stones movie and once again he’s the good doer and Shaw was the evil fag villain. I’ve come to believe that garrisons book has so much bullshit in it that it’s laughable. Stones movie is a bigger joke. Quite possibly the dumbest part of that movie is the Donald Sutherland character. I don’t think Garrison ever met that guy yet he played a prominent role in the film.
IMO that film is responsible for a lot of the bogus conspiracy theories of today.
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whats the highlights or the 1-2 best things you took from the book?
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@dbldwn711,
I admittedly have not read this whole thread, as it's rather windy, but how much have you delved into the Russian aspect of Oswald? Him being a defector en sech...
I admittedly have not read this whole thread, as it's rather windy, but how much have you delved into the Russian aspect of Oswald? Him being a defector en sech...
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Operation CHAOS in general.
The CIA always seems to have their hand in every goddamned cookie jar.
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actually not too much. Most of the people who think it’s a conspiracy attribute it to the CIA and mob working together. 1-2 people think Oswald never even fired a shot.
Yes!! The hard truth on Jim Garrison is a very ugly one. He was an extremely political person playing in the legal field. A big part of him that stuck with me is he appreciated the power of the accusation. People remembered the sensational accusation much more than they remembered the case that later gets swept out of court as not grounded in any firm basis. This was just how the Shaw trial played out in reality. There was no grand trial like the movie. The truth was not on trial.
As I read up more I actually got a little pissed at Costner (who I like) before realizing that was silly.
Garrison was known for whipping up tall tales before he even became DA. His record speaks well to who he was. I would think a bar association would have major issue with this, but the nature of legal affairs in LA made a good fit for his nonsense.
Shaw was completely tragic. Numerous witnesses calling out that they were threatened to go with stories or risk getting pulled into the jackpot with Shaw.
Ah yes, back in a time when the homosexual thrill kill sure sold papers……this guy was a complete abomination and if there is a hell he has to be there.
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Also, I'm slightly obsessed with the Laurel Canyon scene.
Some awesome "dots" from that canyon.
It hasn’t been brought up by others. I’ve not advanced it as I think it’s a red herring. I just have never been able to see the Soviets taking a chance at assassinating American leaders, much the same as I’ve never seen us considering such a chance. There is WAYYYY too much on the line. These events could have absolutely sent the nukes flying. Then no body wins.
I also honestly believe the Soviets when they say they couldn’t wait to get rid of him. He proved to have nothing of value to give them. When his short stint of publicity and PR showing off was over he turned into a disgruntled and inefficient worker. A total pain in the ass.
They were happy to be rid of him and happy to give up one of their own (Marina) to do it. And they proved very clearly they didn’t want him back.
I know….that could all be what we are meant to see. I just don’t see any other angle here.
It’s slightly more plausible that Castro actually wanted him dead (like the sound bites he gave) but even that I feel like the Soviets told him in no uncertain terms to stop it with all that.
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Agree 100%. Whatever drugs Stone was on when he made JFK, I hope he's flushed since.
The "Mr. X" character was particularly lazy and only put there to stoke the wack-a-doodle nutjob super-masturbatory conspiracy theorists who live for this shit. The same people today probably graduated to QAnon and magnetic COVID-19 vaccines.
Played by this guy.
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the fact that he was portrayed as a hero was ridiculous !! In fact, it was his office that first claimed the motorcade route was “changed at the last minute” when it wasn’t. Dumbass couldn’t read a newspaper but that didn’t stop him. What a joke.
I’m vaguely remembering Donald Sutherlands role. I’m not sure if the person played was a kook, but I often have this issue when Sutherland is playing a real person. Lol.
What was with X in true movie. Was that some amalgam of…..CIA whistleblowers or something? It was always confusing to me.
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It fascinates me that this wannabe commie retard, ends up in Russia for what, 3 years??
I am not suggesting it was a russian hit, fwiw, I just think it's interesting. Hell, one could argue its more likely he was set up BECAUSE he was a shithead defector.
Part of what makes the Kennedy deal interesting, is there are a million motives. Lotsa dots.
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I remember reading somewhere some time ago about there being a curb they would've had to hop had they gone down main, er some shit?
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Agree 100%. Whatever drugs Stone was on when he made JFK, I hope he's flushed since.
The "Mr. X" character was particularly lazy and only put there to stoke the wack-a-doodle nutjob super-masturbatory conspiracy theorists who live for this shit. The same people today probably graduated to QAnon and magnetic COVID-19 vaccines.
Played by this guy.
hahaha
couldn’t agree more! In real life Mr X was a guy named prouty. Real doosher. He was however a GREAT story teller so he easily riled up the whack jobs as you said.
He took absolutely innocent events and made them into something sinister and the masses just lapped it up. For instance, some poor bastard had an epileptic seizure just before the motorcade got to dealey plaza that required medical assistance. Prouty said it was rouse/distraction to “allow the shooters to get into place”. He also pointed out that the guy with the umbrella was in on it somehow. We’ve already shown that guy was also completely innocent of any wrong doing.
Prouty (perpetuated by the Sutherland Character) didn’t think twice about trashing these poor people. Oliver Stone then immortalized this jackass by giving him a big part in the movie. These were absolutely innocent people that Prouty and Stone had no problem just destroying all so they could make a name for themselves. The QAnon example is a great one bc these conspiracy nuts that believe him would probably do harm to them just like they tried to do to the pizza store owner.
They ought to be ashamed of themselves.
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Exactly. This did come up some a bit back. To go down main through Dealey would have meant a u turn under the overpasses there. Not something you want to do with principal targets much less a full motorcade with buses. Elm was the one that had direct access to the ramp onto Stemmons.I remember reading somewhere some time ago about there being a curb they would've had to hop had they gone down main, er some shit?
They always plan the most direct route. But, Main had the best sight lines through town. This made right on Houston, left on Elm make sense.