What If JFK Wasn’t a Conspiracy

Mofo said:
It was swept up quickly, and JFK had lots of enemies, which made the idea of a conspiracy more alluring.

Oswald absolutely could have been the lone shooter / disgruntled nutcase that he's always been perceived to be. Certainly there were lots of other low-tech or one man assassination attempts on presidents, some of them even successfully: the grenade attack on Bush II, Hinkley shooting Reagan, Puerto Ricans gunning for Truman, the mobster going after FDR, Booth on Lincoln, etc. It wasn't just entirely possible- it had even been tried before (and successfully). Oswald was a trained killer and was absolutely capable of scoring 2 kills off three shots from a few hundred feet away, if I remember Full Metal Jacket correctly.

That there was (and still is) so much classified material surrounding the JFK assassination, is also troubling. If the Cubans, Soviets, mob or Freemasons definitely didn't kill Kennedy and Oswald alone definitely did, then why all the secrecy almost 60 years later?
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Four of Booth’s co-conspirators were found guilty and executed. Including the first woman executed by the United States Federal government. Lone shooter, but not a one man job.

96B091A6-BCF3-4DAB-B1E1-C219E2FA8FDC.jpeg
 
broncosmitty said:
Four of Booth’s co-conspirators were found guilty and executed. Including the first woman executed by the United States Federal government. Lone shooter, but not a one man job.

View attachment 37359
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well, that was a conspiracy to kill SEVERAL people not just Lincoln.
 
I’ll add this:

I’m not even sure that Oswald was FULLY committed to killing Kennedy that day. Here’s what I mean: Yes, he brought the gun to work but I think that if his coworkers hasn’t left him alone on the 6th floor that he wouldn’t have killed them just to kill Kennedy. I think that if it had rained that day and the bubble top was on he doesn’t take that shot. I think that if he got up in that window, looked around and saw a SS agent in some other window looking at him he doesn’t shoot. My point is there were IMO lots of variables that could have squashed this thing.

Why do I think this? Others would disagree bc Oswald left behind his wedding ring that day with marianna as evidence that he didn’t expect to come back. While he may have thought there was a CHANCE he wouldn’t come back I don’t think it was a surety. Here’s why:

Before Oswald went to kill walker in April he left a handwritten personal and detailed note for Marianna. It was written in Russian. It was clear from this note that Oswald was contemplating getting caught. Here’s what the note said:


  1. This is the key to the mailbox which is located in the main post office in the city on Ervay Street. This is the same street where the drugstore, in which you always waited is located. You will find the mailbox in the post office which is located 4 blocks from the drugstore on that street. I paid for the box last month so don't worry about it.


  1. Send the information as to what has happened to me to the Embassy and include newspaper clippings (should there be anything about me in the newspapers). I believe that the Embassy will come quickly to your assistance on learning everything.
  2. I paid the house rent on the 2d so don't worry about it.
  3. Recently I also paid for water and gas.
  4. The money from work will possibly be coming. The money will be sent to our post office box. Go to the bank and cash the check.
  5. You can either throw out or give my clothing, etc. away. Do not keep these. However, I prefer that you hold on to my personal papers (military, civil, etc.).
  6. Certain of my documents are in the small blue valise.
  7. The address book can be found on my table in the study should need same.
  8. We have friends here. The Red Cross also will help you. (Red Cross in English). [sic]
  9. I left you as much money as I could, $60 on the second of the month. You and the baby [apparently] can live for another 2 months using $10 per week.
  10. If I am alive and taken prisoner, the city jail is located at the end of the bridge through which we always passed on going to the city (right in the beginning of the city after crossing the bridge)
There was no such note this time.
 
Mofo said:
It was swept up quickly, and JFK had lots of enemies, which made the idea of a conspiracy more alluring.

Oswald absolutely could have been the lone shooter / disgruntled nutcase that he's always been perceived to be. Certainly there were lots of other low-tech or one man assassination attempts on presidents, some of them even successfully: the grenade attack on Bush II, Hinkley shooting Reagan, Puerto Ricans gunning for Truman, the mobster going after FDR, Booth on Lincoln, etc. It wasn't just entirely possible- it had even been tried before (and successfully). Oswald was a trained killer and was absolutely capable of scoring 2 kills off three shots from a few hundred feet away, if I remember Full Metal Jacket correctly.

That there was (and still is) so much classified material surrounding the JFK assassination, is also troubling. If the Cubans, Soviets, mob or Freemasons definitely didn't kill Kennedy and Oswald alone definitely did, then why all the secrecy almost 60 years later?
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so… I found that article I was referring to earlier. Here it is…

www.vanityfair.com

Could the Secret Service Have Saved J.F.K.?

Susan Cheever reexamines the actions of John F. Kennedy’s security detail on that fateful day in Dallas.
www.vanityfair.com www.vanityfair.com

Its from vanity fair so take it for what it’s worth but it also has lots of direct quotes which, as you know, if that’s put into print that carries some weight.

This entire discussion has also reminded me about another person involved in this case we haven’t talked about. That would be FBI agent James Hosty. It has been reported that Hosty went to try and visit Oswald at Ruth Paines house in early November just a few weeks before the assassination. Hosty says that this was part of his duties to interview certain people who could possibly be a threat to the president and since the president was due to visit Dallas later that month it’s prudent for law enforcement to check in on such people. Oswald wasn’t there so Hosty only visited with Marianna but, following that visit Oswald supposedly did sent a note to the local FBI office telling them not to come to his house and bother his family. After Oswald was killed and before the WC was announced Hosty was told by his superior officer to destroy the note. The reason for destroying the note was if word got out that the FBI was somehow aware of Oswald before the assassination and didn’t warn the SS about him that they would look bad. Conspiracy theorists will point to the fact that the FBI destroyed the note as part of a cover up but the fact is the note would have IMPLICATED Oswald not exonerated him.

Additionally, after the assassination the FBI went back to oswalds house and found his notebook. In it there was a reference to Hosty, his license plate and the date he went to the house to visit Marianna. However, when the notebook was turned over to the WC that reference to Hosty was PURPOSELY DELETED. Again, conspiracy theorists will point to this as evidence of a coverup but the agent who deleted it was identified. It wasn’t some clandestine figure. When asked why he deleted it he said he didn’t want Hosty to get in trouble for having visited Oswald before the assassination and not having notified the CIA.

Both of these examples are evidence of CYA that @batchaps4me has been talking about not a conspiracy. Although the two can easily be confused for one another the fact is this isn’t EVIDENCE of a conspiracy. It’s merely speculation. I think the documents are still sealed bc there’s a lot of embarrassing stuff in them and the government isn’t hiding evidence of a conspiracy. Time will tell.
 
dbldwn711 said:
so… I found that article I was referring to earlier. Here it is…

www.vanityfair.com

Could the Secret Service Have Saved J.F.K.?

Susan Cheever reexamines the actions of John F. Kennedy’s security detail on that fateful day in Dallas.
www.vanityfair.com www.vanityfair.com

Its from vanity fair so take it for what it’s worth but it also has lots of direct quotes which, as you know, if that’s put into print that carries some weight.

This entire discussion has also reminded me about another person involved in this case we haven’t talked about. That would be FBI agent James Hosty. It has been reported that Hosty went to try and visit Oswald at Ruth Paines house in early November just a few weeks before the assassination. Hosty says that this was part of his duties to interview certain people who could possibly be a threat to the president and since the president was due to visit Dallas later that month it’s prudent for law enforcement to check in on such people. Oswald wasn’t there so Hosty only visited with Marianna but, following that visit Oswald supposedly did sent a note to the local FBI office telling them not to come to his house and bother his family. After Oswald was killed and before the WC was announced Hosty was told by his superior officer to destroy the note. The reason for destroying the note was if word got out that the FBI was somehow aware of Oswald before the assassination and didn’t warn the SS about him that they would look bad. Conspiracy theorists will point to the fact that the FBI destroyed the note as part of a cover up but the fact is the note would have IMPLICATED Oswald not exonerated him.

Additionally, after the assassination the FBI went back to oswalds house and found his notebook. In it there was a reference to Hosty, his license plate and the date he went to the house to visit Marianna. However, when the notebook was turned over to the WC that reference to Hosty was PURPOSELY DELETED. Again, conspiracy theorists will point to this as evidence of a coverup but the agent who deleted it was identified. It wasn’t some clandestine figure. When asked why he deleted it he said he didn’t want Hosty to get in trouble for having visited Oswald before the assassination and not having notified the CIA.

Both of these examples are evidence of CYA that @batchaps4me has been talking about not a conspiracy. Although the two can easily be confused for one another the fact is this isn’t EVIDENCE of a conspiracy. It’s merely speculation. I think the documents are still sealed bc there’s a lot of embarrassing stuff in them and the government isn’t hiding evidence of a conspiracy. Time will tell.
Click to expand...
The bottom line is, if you something to not appear as a conspiracy, then don’t go to pains to make it look like a conspiracy. Yes, there will always be people who mistrust the government and see ulterior motives and evil alliances, without proof. But don’t give such people more ammunition. Doing a rushed or shabby investigation, suppressing evidence and attacking critics will only exasperate the problem.

If it was truly so open-and-shut, then why all the secrecy? If the House Select Committee found high probability that there was a second shooter, then why wasn’t this theory followed up on? To ignore Congress’s finding suggests that co-conspirators escaped. The CIA covered up its involvement, essentially lying to the Warren Commission that Oswald was even on their radar. Now it transpires that it was because James Angelton was inept and hid ALL information. Oswald’s activities and who he met with have never been investigated very well; that could have occurred despite his death, and yet the desire to move on was so strong. Even today, a substantial portion of the records remain sealed- since they clearly don’t show evidence of a conspiracy and are likely sealed to prevent embarrassing side matters from coming to light, why has there never been a better explanation?
 
dbldwn711 said:
so… I found that article I was referring to earlier. Here it is…

www.vanityfair.com

Could the Secret Service Have Saved J.F.K.?

Susan Cheever reexamines the actions of John F. Kennedy’s security detail on that fateful day in Dallas.
www.vanityfair.com www.vanityfair.com

Its from vanity fair so take it for what it’s worth but it also has lots of direct quotes which, as you know, if that’s put into print that carries some weight.

This entire discussion has also reminded me about another person involved in this case we haven’t talked about. That would be FBI agent James Hosty. It has been reported that Hosty went to try and visit Oswald at Ruth Paines house in early November just a few weeks before the assassination. Hosty says that this was part of his duties to interview certain people who could possibly be a threat to the president and since the president was due to visit Dallas later that month it’s prudent for law enforcement to check in on such people. Oswald wasn’t there so Hosty only visited with Marianna but, following that visit Oswald supposedly did sent a note to the local FBI office telling them not to come to his house and bother his family. After Oswald was killed and before the WC was announced Hosty was told by his superior officer to destroy the note. The reason for destroying the note was if word got out that the FBI was somehow aware of Oswald before the assassination and didn’t warn the SS about him that they would look bad. Conspiracy theorists will point to the fact that the FBI destroyed the note as part of a cover up but the fact is the note would have IMPLICATED Oswald not exonerated him.

Additionally, after the assassination the FBI went back to oswalds house and found his notebook. In it there was a reference to Hosty, his license plate and the date he went to the house to visit Marianna. However, when the notebook was turned over to the WC that reference to Hosty was PURPOSELY DELETED. Again, conspiracy theorists will point to this as evidence of a coverup but the agent who deleted it was identified. It wasn’t some clandestine figure. When asked why he deleted it he said he didn’t want Hosty to get in trouble for having visited Oswald before the assassination and not having notified the CIA.

Both of these examples are evidence of CYA that @batchaps4me has been talking about not a conspiracy. Although the two can easily be confused for one another the fact is this isn’t EVIDENCE of a conspiracy. It’s merely speculation. I think the documents are still sealed bc there’s a lot of embarrassing stuff in them and the government isn’t hiding evidence of a conspiracy. Time will tell.
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Hosty is the perfect example of why so much was classified and fucked with. The reality of government life is you’re one good fuck from being shit canned.

Look no further than the current situation with NIH emails on the Wuhan lab as an example. It’s very easy for a government to look conspiratorial when the shit really hits the fan. And boy did the shit really hit the fan here.

Hosty’s boss directed Hosty to destroy the letter from Oswald on direct order from Hoover, a master political operator. Political operators go to ground in these moments. Hosty saw Oswalds letter as just another crackpot letter that agents can get often.

Depending on ones view of this event the classification and hiding can either be conspiracy or CYA, but the view of this event is greatly changed based on which way one believes.

For me….we know all hasn’t been declassified yet, but a whole lot has on the last 20-30 years. What has been released tells the story of a government in panic and covering their ass, but not conspiratorial culpability, IMO
 
Mofo said:
The bottom line is, if you something to not appear as a conspiracy, then don’t go to pains to make it look like a conspiracy. Yes, there will always be people who mistrust the government and see ulterior motives and evil alliances, without proof. But don’t give such people more ammunition. Doing a rushed or shabby investigation, suppressing evidence and attacking critics will only exasperate the problem.

If it was truly so open-and-shut, then why all the secrecy? If the House Select Committee found high probability that there was a second shooter, then why wasn’t this theory followed up on? To ignore Congress’s finding suggests that co-conspirators escaped. The CIA covered up its involvement, essentially lying to the Warren Commission that Oswald was even on their radar. Now it transpires that it was because James Angelton was inept and hid ALL information. Oswald’s activities and who he met with have never been investigated very well; that could have occurred despite his death, and yet the desire to move on was so strong. Even today, a substantial portion of the records remain sealed- since they clearly don’t show evidence of a conspiracy and are likely sealed to prevent embarrassing side matters from coming to light, why has there never been a better explanation?
Click to expand...
The House Select Committee absolutely gave the conspiracy enough legs to carry on for decades back in 79.

They had it all written out that their findings align overall with WC. Then, the Dictabelt came out. Instead of stopping and going back to work (including having to raise funds for continued investigation that they were out of) they sloppily tacted on that conspiracy was possible.

It was a gross, inefficient outcome of government that could easily have been remedied. Instead they tacted that possible outcome on and moved on. The Dictabelt was invalidated not long later (I think it was a drummer of all people who found the ah ha in that theory, and it solved for it). But, that report remains out there with the government saying there COULD have been a conspiracy.

You would think the US government was somehow profiting from conspiracy theories. Wait….did I just do a conspiracy theory?
 
dbldwn711 said:
I’ll add this:

I’m not even sure that Oswald was FULLY committed to killing Kennedy that day. Here’s what I mean: Yes, he brought the gun to work but I think that if his coworkers hasn’t left him alone on the 6th floor that he wouldn’t have killed them just to kill Kennedy. I think that if it had rained that day and the bubble top was on he doesn’t take that shot. I think that if he got up in that window, looked around and saw a SS agent in some other window looking at him he doesn’t shoot. My point is there were IMO lots of variables that could have squashed this thing.

Why do I think this? Others would disagree bc Oswald left behind his wedding ring that day with marianna as evidence that he didn’t expect to come back. While he may have thought there was a CHANCE he wouldn’t come back I don’t think it was a surety. Here’s why:

Before Oswald went to kill walker in April he left a handwritten personal and detailed note for Marianna. It was written in Russian. It was clear from this note that Oswald was contemplating getting caught. Here’s what the note said:


  1. This is the key to the mailbox which is located in the main post office in the city on Ervay Street. This is the same street where the drugstore, in which you always waited is located. You will find the mailbox in the post office which is located 4 blocks from the drugstore on that street. I paid for the box last month so don't worry about it.


  1. Send the information as to what has happened to me to the Embassy and include newspaper clippings (should there be anything about me in the newspapers). I believe that the Embassy will come quickly to your assistance on learning everything.
  2. I paid the house rent on the 2d so don't worry about it.
  3. Recently I also paid for water and gas.
  4. The money from work will possibly be coming. The money will be sent to our post office box. Go to the bank and cash the check.
  5. You can either throw out or give my clothing, etc. away. Do not keep these. However, I prefer that you hold on to my personal papers (military, civil, etc.).
  6. Certain of my documents are in the small blue valise.
  7. The address book can be found on my table in the study should need same.
  8. We have friends here. The Red Cross also will help you. (Red Cross in English). [sic]
  9. I left you as much money as I could, $60 on the second of the month. You and the baby [apparently] can live for another 2 months using $10 per week.
  10. If I am alive and taken prisoner, the city jail is located at the end of the bridge through which we always passed on going to the city (right in the beginning of the city after crossing the bridge)
There was no such note this time.
Click to expand...
I’m with you on the aspect that Oswald might not have done it. He might have just taken his “curtain rods” home at the end of the day.

What I’m not sure on is where his personal “go/no-go” was. I find it hard to feel I’m accurately imaging such a thing in the mind of a deranged person. For instance, if he’s come that far just to see the bubble top is on maybe he takes the shots anyway. I don’t see them being successful, and he would have to know that. But, why was he doing this again….most of what he did was for the attention it got him in life. He had this hazy vision of who he wanted approval from in life. And he knew these hazy figures hated government, capitalism, etc.

I feel he would have just been fine telling people that he took the unsuccessful shots at JFK.

No matter how deranged this is I pause at an SS agent staring back at him from another building with their own rifle. That could have pushed him back. Hell, any semblance of current SS protocol would have stopped this before it started. They would have been all over that building before they rolled through.
 
beardown07 said:
Since I haven't seen this yet...correct me if I'm wrong.:noidea:

CIA Dr. Louis Jolyon West.

He was "treating" Ruby.

He was deeply involved in MkUltra, most famously, for killing an elephant with LSD.
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That always read to me as rather unsubstantiated. I’ll admit I might not be fully informed on it. But what reading I did do it was very hard to substantiate accuracy as doctor records alone are hard to get, and a CIA doctor, impossible.

It was another one of the nagging questions that were also covered up in classification, which again, can sure look like conspiracy, but don’t necessarily mean it.

Maybe I’m not fully up to speed on that one. If you are or have further info on it I’m curious to read.
 
Mofo said:
It was swept up quickly, and JFK had lots of enemies, which made the idea of a conspiracy more alluring.

Oswald absolutely could have been the lone shooter / disgruntled nutcase that he's always been perceived to be. Certainly there were lots of other low-tech or one man assassination attempts on presidents, some of them even successfully: the grenade attack on Bush II, Hinkley shooting Reagan, Puerto Ricans gunning for Truman, the mobster going after FDR, Booth on Lincoln, etc. It wasn't just entirely possible- it had even been tried before (and successfully). Oswald was a trained killer and was absolutely capable of scoring 2 kills off three shots from a few hundred feet away, if I remember Full Metal Jacket correctly.

That there was (and still is) so much classified material surrounding the JFK assassination, is also troubling. If the Cubans, Soviets, mob or Freemasons definitely didn't kill Kennedy and Oswald alone definitely did, then why all the secrecy almost 60 years later?
Click to expand...
You made me flash on Full Metal Jacket here.

People look at the two court martials and the ultimate dishonorable discharge for Oswald, then put that with one range test that didn’t score excellent as Oswald getting nothing from the Marines.

But, he quite literally was a lot like Gomer Pyle in the movie. About the only solid proficiency he showed the Marines was with a rifle. Other than that he was a nut.

Shame is that he just didn’t off himself in the latrine like Pyle did.
 
Orlando_Eagles said:
The House Select Committee absolutely gave the conspiracy enough legs to carry on for decades back in 79.

They had it all written out that their findings align overall with WC. Then, the Dictabelt came out. Instead of stopping and going back to work (including having to raise funds for continued investigation that they were out of) they sloppily tacted on that conspiracy was possible.

It was a gross, inefficient outcome of government that could easily have been remedied. Instead they tacted that possible outcome on and moved on. The Dictabelt was invalidated not long later (I think it was a drummer of all people who found the ah ha in that theory, and it solved for it). But, that report remains out there with the government saying there COULD have been a conspiracy.

You would think the US government was somehow profiting from conspiracy theories. Wait….did I just do a conspiracy theory?
Click to expand...
They didn't just say it was a possible conspiracy, the HSCA claimed it was 'probable'. That they did so based largely on the flimsy "evidence" you brought up, tells you everything you need to know about how inept the whole process was. (Or maybe that House Select Committees in general suck ass.)

The public then went decades without seeing additional official evidence, despite knowing there was a crapload that was being suppressed.
 
Orlando_Eagles said:
That always read to me as rather unsubstantiated. I’ll admit I might not be fully informed on it. But what reading I did do it was very hard to substantiate accuracy as doctor records alone are hard to get, and a CIA doctor, impossible.

It was another one of the nagging questions that were also covered up in classification, which again, can sure look like conspiracy, but don’t necessarily mean it.

Maybe I’m not fully up to speed on that one. If you are or have further info on it I’m curious to read.
Click to expand...

Louis Jolyon West - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
 
Mofo said:
They didn't just say it was a possible conspiracy, the HSCA claimed it was 'probable'. That they did so based largely on the flimsy "evidence" you brought up, tells you everything you need to know about how inept the whole process was. (Or maybe that House Select Committees in general suck ass.)

The public then went decades without seeing additional official evidence, despite knowing there was a crapload that was being suppressed.
Click to expand...
You’re right. I’m parsing words- innocently I swear.

They said it was probable.

The WC was ultimately incomplete and ineffective of a solid inquiry due to politics. They had Johnson up their ass to get it out and through the news cycle before the election.

The Select Committee was hamstrung by funds. I’m thin on proper nouns here, but there was a bit in the book how the committee was initially led by a guy that all felt was the right man for the job. He came to Congress with his budget request that was much higher than they had in mind so they stonewalled him and he basically quit. When it picked back up they took the budget given, but that budget was gone by the very end.

So….faced with new evidence and the past experience with getting proper funds from Congress they just did a sloppy tack on to the results.

And you’re right….from there no further investigation or releases for about 15 years. In the meantime Stones movie hits. The conspiracy buzz was always prevalent. It took off in the 80s/early 90s. I know, as this is when I got really into the conspiracies.
 
dbldwn711 said:
I’ll admit I don’t know much about this guy, what he was working on or how it ties to Ruby. You clearly do. Do you have more info than this link? What do you think his involvement/purpose means to this case?
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I dunno. The dude was a world-class cunt tho, and any ties to MKUltra, no matter how insignificant in appearance, warrants scrutiny.

There is also belief that Oswald was subjected to human experimentation while stationed at Atsugi Naval Air Base in Japan.
 
So much interesting stuff going on at the same time, like the stock market and the Great Salad Oil Swindle, that ended up making Warren Buffett much richer.
 
Orlando_Eagles said:
You’re right. I’m parsing words- innocently I swear.

They said it was probable.

The WC was ultimately incomplete and ineffective of a solid inquiry due to politics. They had Johnson up their ass to get it out and through the news cycle before the election.

The Select Committee was hamstrung by funds. I’m thin on proper nouns here, but there was a bit in the book how the committee was initially led by a guy that all felt was the right man for the job. He came to Congress with his budget request that was much higher than they had in mind so they stonewalled him and he basically quit. When it picked back up they took the budget given, but that budget was gone by the very end.

So….faced with new evidence and the past experience with getting proper funds from Congress they just did a sloppy tack on to the results.

And you’re right….from there no further investigation or releases for about 15 years. In the meantime Stones movie hits. The conspiracy buzz was always prevalent. It took off in the 80s/early 90s. I know, as this is when I got really into the conspiracies.
Click to expand...

I’ll add this general point about conspiracy’s in this country. After Kennedy’s death it was mostly the left believed in conspiracy’s. The left felt that there were a lot of conspiracy’s around the Vietnam war and then Nixon. Today, it’s the right that generally believes in conspiracies with talk about TDS.

The point is that beliefs in conspiracies (not just this one) are wide spread and have been around a long long time. That’s why they can easily gain a foothold and develop traction.
 
dbldwn711 said:
I’ll add this general point about conspiracy’s in this country. After Kennedy’s death it was mostly the left believed in conspiracy’s. The left felt that there were a lot of conspiracy’s around the Vietnam war and then Nixon. Today, it’s the right that generally believes in conspiracies with talk about TDS.

The point is that beliefs in conspiracies (not just this one) are wide spread and have been around a long long time. That’s why they can easily gain a foothold and develop traction.
Click to expand...
Well, that and the fact that there is a laundry list of conspiracies that actually happened.
 
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