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What If JFK Wasn’t a Conspiracy
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I’m still looking into this but I found this and just put it out there.
The Raleigh phone call revisited
Here I suggest a new interpretation of the Raleigh phone call on the night of Nov 23, 1963, which departs from previous interpretations. For the facts of the story, background and discussion: "The Raleigh Call and the Fingerprints of Intelligence" by Grover Proctor, http://groverproctor.us/jfk/jf...
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Proportionality bias…
I have to say I’m intrigued with the whole part about cut outs and Oswald attempting this call being the signal he needs to be silenced.
But, intrigue has gotten me burnt before. Intriguing isn’t always the most logical answer.
I’ve done a first read of both sides, and I admittedly have roughly equal questions and doubts on each side. I’m going to need to read both sides and digest more.
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I’ve also looked into both sides of this.
Here’s my question: if Oswald is this trained CIA operative why is he talking to police? Why are they interrogating him? All he has to do is say “I want a lawyer” and they don’t even question him.
IMO Oswald was acting like a guilty man and trying to talk his way out of it or at least blame others.
I’ll add this: I’m not denying that Oswald may have known Clay Shaw and David Ferrie in New Orleans. I won’t deny that Shaw may have been in the CIA. But simply KNOWING those guys doesn’t mean he’s working with them. Despite all the investigations and documents uncovered there’s just no evidence that Oswald was in communication with them before JFK was shot. I mean, they are supposedly working together but they communicate in such a way as to not leave any evidence that they are communicating? Oswald has to catch a ride to work from a neighbor and risk having the gun discovered?
I’ll admit that I can’t find one reason why Oswald would call this guy. It’s a mystery. But I’m not ready to fill in a bunch a dots based upon conjecture.
Preliminarily, I think it’s just troublesome to assign significance to this as there just isn’t any clarity to what’s going on logically. I believe there is no legality against listening in on an arrested suspects calls, I’m presuming the same applied back then.
It’s intriguing that it’s mentioned in Proctor’s theory that Mrs Treon’s daughter, who worked directly with the Dallas PD, stated she was in the switchboard room, and the men that came in were not Dallas PD. But, that has to be predicated on her credibility, of which I have no clue.
Mrs Swinney was nervous….that’s laid on strongly in this, and it can certainly support the conspiracy. Or, it could just be a thing….she was nervous to have to handle any calls for the man that killed the President, and she was clearly instructed to not connect his call. No matter the reason that could explain her nerves.
Perhaps this was part of some conspiratorial thing. I can appreciate this. I’ve held onto the theory that Oswald was involved with the CIA. I wouldn’t put shit past them. I just haven’t seen enough solid evidence to switch back to “it was them”. Maybe I’m just being anti proportionality biased.
I’m more apt to slot this into any Soviet theory Ive had to be honest. Because it’s intriguing I’ve often flirted with the concept that the Soviets were actively exploring what they could do with Oswald types….how they could have them in place as saboteurs or assassins if needed. I do not believe that they trained Oswald up to do exactly this, I think he went rogue for whatever reason. Maybe he picked up at some point that this John Hurt was monitored, or even a double agent, for the Soviets. And I’m Oswald’s mind a call to Hurt would tip off the Soviets.
Again, I’m not saying this is anything more than an interesting theory. It’s got as much support and detraction as any theory from this event. It just stands out with the question of why did Oswald not just shut up and request a lawyer when arrested? Any trained agent would do just that. But, in this theory I don’t think he was trained. I think he’s trying to prove his worth. Being completely untrained on handling being apprehended he is going to go with who he is and just ramble and be confrontational and try to handle the pressure the way he knows how. And he’s going to try to get word out to who he THINKS are his handlers over there. This would jive up with the Mexico City embassy visits before the assassination.
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There is a book written by John Davis called...
"Mafia Kingfish: Carlos Marcello and the Assassination of John F. Kennedy"
The book is out of print but if you ever come across it or find it at your local library I highly recommend it. It's the most compelling theory I've ever read on the JFK assassination.
Carlos Marcello is the common link between all the players....Ruby, Oswald, Ferrie, Bannister....they all worked for Carlos Marcello. He was the most powerful crime boss from Dallas, to little Rock, down to New Orleans, the Gulf Coast all the way into the pan handle of Florida...Carlos Marcello and his crime family controlled it all.
The mob helped JFK get elected, then Bobby had Carlos Marcello snatched off the streets of New Orleans as he was walking to his office one morning and had him deported by dropping him off in a third world country in South America! He was dropped off in the middle of nowhere with nothing! He fought his way back into the country and then suddenly he decided to kill the head of the dog (JFK) so the tail (Bobby) would die with it.
"Mafia Kingfish: Carlos Marcello and the Assassination of John F. Kennedy"
The book is out of print but if you ever come across it or find it at your local library I highly recommend it. It's the most compelling theory I've ever read on the JFK assassination.
Carlos Marcello is the common link between all the players....Ruby, Oswald, Ferrie, Bannister....they all worked for Carlos Marcello. He was the most powerful crime boss from Dallas, to little Rock, down to New Orleans, the Gulf Coast all the way into the pan handle of Florida...Carlos Marcello and his crime family controlled it all.
The mob helped JFK get elected, then Bobby had Carlos Marcello snatched off the streets of New Orleans as he was walking to his office one morning and had him deported by dropping him off in a third world country in South America! He was dropped off in the middle of nowhere with nothing! He fought his way back into the country and then suddenly he decided to kill the head of the dog (JFK) so the tail (Bobby) would die with it.
Not sure i'm convinced with this one. As far as I have ever seen Oswald did not sign his letters and include his middle name, he didn't use his middle name when addressing himself and others didn't use his middle name when addressing him. He went by Lee Oswald and sometimes his signature would read Lee H. Oswald.
I don't agree at all. If he just shut up and requested an attorney he might not live long enough to see said attorney, he knew what was happening and said it for the entire country to hear, when you are put in that situation and things go down and you know you were just the patsy you serve no value to the people who put you in that position and a quick end to you is quite desirable. He was reaching out to someone he thought could help him quickly.
Very fair points. I think these are arguments that can be made equally. Then you have to decide where to fit either argument into what you believe happened.
Occasionally two arguments can come, and both fit ones overall belief. That’s where this lies for me….it doesn’t challenge anything either way.
The overall event with the calls and the glimpse in the switchboard room is a good story, but like most things in this event….bastardized by time and stories changing.
Assassins always get their middle name thrown in by media, to this day, and it goes into historical record. It’s a weird thing.
I watched this through…..as with anything JFK related it’s compelling, and I appreciate that the speaker calls out the major flaws in the theory, all while making the argument.
I think IF there was some effort to advance a government conspiracy that Oswald was put into such conspiracy, and they wanted to fake a letter from Oswald, they would be well aware of his dyslexia and work to ape it along with matching the handwriting.
That one misspell could be a smoking gun, or it could be a red herring.
I think the problem in having these conversations is people who believe there is no question Oswald is guilty end of story are looking for a scooby doo ending, off comes the mask and Daphne says, it's the jewel maker Mr. Wickims!
That's never going to happen, but it is fun to talk about. I will say without question I would be willing to put my life on the line that it wasn't Oswald if it meant we could find out the truth.
I think we are decades past everyone agreeing that such truth would be the truth….no matter the evidence proving it. If it was ever going to be possible to for all to agree.
I’ve made it clear in here I believe it was Oswald doing the shooting….but I’ve always been sold there was some conspiracy Oswald was part of. I just don’t think the idiot followed directions well.
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Ted Cruz father.
That makes it even more ridiculous to think it was Oswald. You just called him an idiot, if he were part of a conspiracy to assassinate the President do you really think whoever was running the show would have allowed "the idiot" to try and do it alone?
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First, of all, I’ve already said that if I could pick any day to go back in time and observe 11/22/63 in Dealey plaza is definitely on that short list but I certainly wouldn’t want you to trade your life for it! Haha.
Second, the JFK assassination is one my favorite topics to discuss. It’s right there with just about anything WWII related. I enjoy discussing and hearing about it from both sides. That’s probably bc for about half my life I was 100% sure it was some sort of conspiracy but now I’m sure it wasn’t. Therefore, I can really see both sides of this topic which makes talking about it fun for me.
I’ve leaned that way for a long time, yes. And you’re right…it flies right in the face that he was an idiot, like I had just said. The thing with Oswald, to me, is that he was an idiot in some ways, and not in others. The book I read that was in the OP of this thread spent a bunch of time on what was known about him, and some time inferring based on what was known.
But, that’s all irrelevant. I think there were handlers looking to use him solely as a patsy. I don’t know if I’ll settle on “them” being CIA, KGB, Mafia or some weird combo of them.
Keep in mind I’m staying with what I’ve laid into this entire thread….I think it was Oswald as the shooter and there were no other shooters. But, I don’t think whoever he could have been allied with gave him a green light in Dallas on that day. For whatever reason, he saw and took the chance.
Supporting this….I struggle with the CIA assassinating Kennedy as a deliberate plan, but I recognize that a plan could have been in operation. I also don’t push back on so much more that has come out about the CIA since Nov, 1963. MK Uktra, any of those things totally happened.
And I think it totally happened that they were securing assets for such a plan, and they had the patsy asset go on his own and try to play some kind of hero.
And the strongest thing they had to cover was not that they executed the assassination of a sitting President, but that they would ever have something of the kind in operational planning.
This has as many holes as any theory, more than in some cases…..it’s just where my mind has settled over the years on this.
I apologize I Can't seem to find your thoughts on the magic bullet?
@dbldwn711 @Orlando_Eagles
How does a bullet that entered the President's back 4 or 5 inches below the neckline come out his neck when shot from a 6th floor window?
@dbldwn711 @Orlando_Eagles
How does a bullet that entered the President's back 4 or 5 inches below the neckline come out his neck when shot from a 6th floor window?
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So for me, this was the SINGLE biggest hurdle that I had to get over when I was moving away from thinking it was not a conspiracy. For me, this was the single best piece of evidence as to what made me think it WAS a conspiracy.
I’d love to discuss this topic. This bullet has MANY issues that needs to be discussed. It’s movement. How it was discovered. The condition it was in after it was discovered.
I’m not at home right now. Plus I’d need to go back and look at it some more but if people are down to discuss let’s do that. If we are gonna do I suggest we break it out into different topics. I’ve outlined three in this post. Am I missing any? Are there any other issues with this bullet (broadly speaking) that we should identify up front?